So where are they and what are they doing? (page 19 of 33)

Hello,

It’s astonishing to say such a thing. You always bring up Taliban-era Afghanistan, as if France should define and position itself in relation to the most extreme example—a sort of reductio ad Hitlerum. What I see, for my part, is a country where the State, ironically, fills the role of religion: In France, the State meddles in everything—from the spelling of your first name, to how you raise your children, to the relationship you’re supposed to have with your body, resulting in countless regulations, from the Caillavet law to vaccine mandates, to your health (now even forcing you into a mutual insurance plan), to pestering you with screening campaigns, to the color of your house’s facade, to what you’re allowed to say, almost to what you’re allowed to think in silence, to your freedom to move around, and soon to what you wear in the "public space". This State, which barely hides its project to control online expression, eliminate anonymity, increase surveillance, and police opinions by misrepresenting them, you see as an asset against religions. I disagree—and I think what falls under religion should be left to religion.

The fact is, if you claim that people live by religion, you’ll have to admit that in its absence, something must replace it and serve the same purpose. In France, the State, as the guarantor of secularism, underpins what you call the "living together" pact. Once that pact is destroyed, there’s no objective reason to live with those who annoy you.

Since I’m replying here:

And just because you or I might be capable of it doesn’t mean we should wish it for everyone.

I don’t wish it (indifference to various gods, national nonsense, and consumerist ideologies) for everyone. I just observe a rigidity in my fellow citizens who cling to obtuse, often fanatical groups to escape despair. And I’m glad that a few individuals—whose growing rarity makes them dear to me—escape these movements.

Catherine

It’s mind-blowing to read such prose. 🙂 I’ll let you pontificate from the comfort of your slippers in a country where you risk nothing by spouting your writings—France. 😉 How about doing the same from North Korea, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, Iran, China, Myanmar, Cuba, or Venezuela… 😛

Hello Catherine,

The fact is, if you claim that men live by religion, you’ll have to agree that in its absence, it’s essential that something replace it and serve the same purpose.

It’s easier to free oneself from a religion than from a State that serves as one. I’m happy to discuss French secularism—I know you’ve been away for a long time—but the concept currently being pushed has little in common with the secularism I was raised with. A shift in the early 2000s toward something far less liberal may have escaped your notice. We used to talk about state neutrality and the guarantee of freedoms, in line with the 1905 law, but now we’ve gone much further in controlling public and private life, as well as social and moral action.

Michel

I’ll let you ramble away in your slippers from a country where you risk nothing spouting your writings, France.😉

I’m not in France right now. It’s funny to see how programmed you are. On the points I’m raising, you could try comparing them with dozens of other countries. But you’d rather stay blind. Anyway, let’s drop it—we won’t get anywhere on this topic. You’ve never made the effort to accept, or even listen to, François’s positions in the past, which were similar on these moral and societal issues.

Michel

Michel, you’re impossible—it’s not cool to drag a dead person’s memory into this to back up your point.

Hello Mr. Tatra,

In France, the state meddles in everything—from the spelling of your first name to how you raise your children, the relationship with your body that you're supposed to have, and the resulting numerous regulations, from the Caillavet law to vaccine mandates, your health (to the point of now forcing you to have supplementary insurance), pestering you with screening campaigns, the color of your house’s facade, what you're allowed to say, almost what you're allowed to think in silence, your freedom to move around, and soon what you wear in the "public space".

Mr. Tatra, in your hodgepodge of "freedom-killing" laws and regulations, you forgot the Évin law of January 19, 1991. I’m glad it exists because I’m relieved I no longer have to breathe in smoke during my meetings or be called intolerant when I complained.

On the other hand, my friend Gérard, a great athlete, mountaineer, and non-smoker, wasn’t so lucky to benefit from this "freedom-killing" law since his colleagues who shared his office had the freedom to fill the place with smoke until 1991. My friend Gérard, who had just retired, and I had many mountain projects together. Unfortunately, you see, Mr. Tatra, he couldn’t enjoy them because he died prematurely from lung cancer due to secondhand smoke...

For centuries, religion was used to lead people by "the nose," and then science came along with explanations, so it lost some of its power. But I think religion is a topic to avoid, like a few others, because it’s explosive.

North Korea, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Azerbaijan, Vietnam, Iran, China, Myanmar, Cuba, Venezuela...

... Russia, Belarus, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan (taboo subject!), Bahrain, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, the UAE, etc., etc.

World Press Freedom Ranking according to RSF: see here But RSF would be under orders, so...

But I think the topic of religions should be avoided, like some others, because it’s explosive.

I’d even say it’s a ticking time bomb.

And France is ranked 21st, way ahead of that great Land of the Free, the United States of America (between Belize and Gabon)!

But I guess it’s probably another lie...

You forgot Turkey! 😉

I don’t know why, but sometimes Tatra’s speeches remind me of this.

You forgot Turkey!

Yes, and India! Very touristy countries. When you come back from there, you realize how lucky you are to have a European passport!

Alright, a little Tatra punching bag session!

Hi Lillie, 🙂

For Ethiopia and Cuba (and the rest, for that matter), it's a ranking of the worst countries for press freedom.

we're off-topic here, except to answer "what are they doing"?

Yep.😉

But at least we’ve left Brittany!

Where are they and what are they doing?

It’d be up to those who haven’t been active on VF since its closure—or even a bit before—to answer.

Have they stopped traveling? Found another platform? Don’t know about the buyout and reopening?

Maybe it’s better to ask how we can attract new faces?

Hello everyone,

Here we go again, a little Tatra-punching session!

Yep. We’re ganging up on the scapegoat. Not great, all this... It seems Tatra is becoming the punching bag for some, even to the point of attributing statements to him that aren’t even his: One example among many:

Feel free to prefer Afghanistan to France

(Where did Tatra ever say he preferred Afghanistan to France?) You might not agree with his ideas—though he often shows common sense, at least in my opinion—but the responses he gets are so aggressive and sometimes so bad-faith that it’s becoming uncomfortable.

I’d like to come back to the title: so where are they and what are they doing? Personally, I’m here, like many others, and until now, I’ve mostly just been reading the posts in this section without chiming in too much. But how to put it... I’m getting tired of it. So many biting remarks, yet when VF reopened, everyone was participating with tact, testing the waters a bit.

Old habits die hard... There’s also not much info on destinations anymore. But the reasons for that have already been explained. On the other hand, some members post to contribute and are simply ignored by the big names in the discussions, which makes them feel out of their depth. So they give up. It feels like an insiders’ club now. 😕 This is just my take, of course, but since the discussion is turning into another controversy, I wanted to respond to the original topic.

Have a good day,

Anne-Claire

Hello,

It’s easier to free oneself from a religion than from a State that acts as one.

I don’t think the difficulty is tied to the nature of the pressure, but rather to its degree of fanaticism.

I’m happy to discuss French secularism, and I know you’ve been away for a long time, but the concept currently being pushed has little to do with the secularism I was raised with. A shift in the early 2000s toward something far less liberal may have escaped your notice. We used to talk about state neutrality and guaranteed freedoms, in line with the 1905 law, but now we’ve gone much further in controlling public and private life, as well as social and moral action.

The last thing I saw in France were the 9/11 attacks. I left a few months later. So, as far as France is concerned, I’m fossilized in the late 20th century (which suits me just fine). I have to admit I don’t understand much of what’s going on anymore. The impression I get is that the path chosen is a mix of isolation and pride—a besieged stance that defends itself by legislating more and more, on everything, with every small group wanting its particularities recognized, leading to collective suffocation. I’ve had strange experiences there, like having an -e tacked onto my academic title without being asked (still not sure why something neutral suddenly had to be overtly gendered. I must’ve missed too many episodes). I find it amusing that "yes" or "with pleasure" have lately been replaced by "no problem" (you hear it *everywhere*!), in a people (are they still one?) so tense.

Catherine

And the "good luck" like it’s needed to get through the rest of the day

Hi,

But I think the topic of religions should be avoided, like some others, because it’s explosive.

If the alternative to an explosion is an implosion, I’m not sure we’d gain anything from it. Regular, moderate explosions (in terms of intensity, not censored) are healthier (by releasing pressure) than anything else—even if we end up with our hair looking like fireworks 😛

Catherine

. But how to put it... I'm getting tired of it

I’d even say the loop is closed since the members of this forum will have nothing left to say to each other...😉 Here we are, not much further ahead. So you don’t like opinion-makers, those who stir things up, people who reinvent the world? Since these discussions are causing weariness, what would you consider a relevant discussion, then? A discussion where small talk matters?