Bolivia: Beyond the Illusions, the Disaster (page 2 of 3)

Hello sir,

I’m in awe of your knowledge of ecology, gastronomy, and nutrition, as well as your insights into the stupidity of the education system, and your expertise in smuggling and organ trafficking in a country you seem to know *extremely* well. I’d love to know as much as you do—it’d make writing like you so much easier. I *could* correct your spelling mistakes (you called it an intellectual disaster!), but I won’t. Safe travels, sir.

We got back yesterday from an extraordinary trip to Bolivia, visiting places as stunning as they are remote, like the canyons of Tupiza and especially Ciudad de Roma near Guadalupe in the Sud Lípez.

I generally agree with Bruno8131, but not with this phrase: Poor why? Because they lost access to the ocean after wars, and Chile imposes huge taxes on them to export through Chilean ports.

The taxes imposed by Chile for transporting goods are part of Evo Morales' propaganda. The ICJ just issued a ruling on October 1, 2018, confirming that Chile does grant free movement of Bolivian goods and people within its territory (just like our goods in the EU). https://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2018/10/01/la-cij-donne-tort-a-la-bolivie-sur-un-conflit-de-plus-d-un-siecle-avec-le-chili_5363013_3222.html

Moreover, it’s Bolivia that sets its own customs duties for imports and exports in the ports of Arica and Antofagasta, where it has its own agents. https://www.mitoyrealidad.cl/mitoyrealidad/site/artic/20141230/asocfile/20141230145007/le_chili_et_lacces_a_la_mer_2.pdf.

So, "poor why?" That’s another story!

We got back yesterday from an extraordinary trip to Bolivia, passing through places as magnificent as they are remote, like the canyons of Tupiza and especially Ciudad de Roma near Guadalupe in the Sud Lípez. I generally agree with Bruno8131, but not with this phrase: Poor why? Because they lost access to the ocean after wars, and Chile imposes huge taxes on them to export through Chilean ports. The taxes imposed by Chile for transporting goods are part of Evo Morales' propaganda. The ICJ just issued a ruling on October 1, 2018, confirming that Chile does grant free movement of Bolivian goods and people on Chilean territory (just like our goods in the EU). www.lemonde.fr/...li_5363013_3222.html Moreover, it’s Bolivia that sets its own import and export customs duties in the ports of Arica and Antofagasta, where it has its own agents. www.mitoyrealidad.cl/...acces_a_la_mer_2.pdf. So "poor why?" is another story!

I work in import-export in Bolivia and I ship my goods through Chilean ports... So no taxes, but other obstacles, yes. Frequent strikes, big delays for X reasons—basically, we’re treated like garbage because they know we don’t have other options. Note that it’s not so much the Chilean government’s fault, but since the ports are privatized, it’s more the port management companies. The poverty issue obviously comes from elsewhere, even if being a landlocked country costs us a few tenths of a percentage point of GDP, like all other landlocked countries. Anyway, we’re getting off topic.

I obviously don’t agree at all with the thread’s author. I had posted a long reply earlier that was deleted because it was a bit too harsh, but I’d say the only people who can judge a country are its own inhabitants...

A beautiful catalog, but not a lived experience, not a photo, not a story to back it up. "Anything excessive is insignificant"

What an unpleasant piece of writing to read, but I forced myself to finish it anyway! Everything in your text is negative—I think the best thing would be not to travel at all. What made me laugh the most was your analysis of fruit yogurts; I wouldn’t even think of eating fruit yogurts in Bolivia. Anyway, I backpacked through Bolivia for 5 weeks and LOVED it. Anne-Elise

To continue from my previous message about pollution, it’s really not our place—us Westerners—to criticize. We’ve polluted the world for decades and have now exported our ever-growing overconsumption lifestyle to the rest of the world (including the internet, which requires enormous amounts of energy!). As tourists, isn’t our role to discuss it on the ground without criticizing, but rather to suggest or support local efforts? With all the resources of wealthy countries, pollution still exists at home. Isn’t it unhealthy to criticize a poor country? Everywhere we’ve brought it up, local populations agreed, and with the spread of the internet, awareness of pollution is (almost) everywhere (though there’s still a lot of work to do in India! But things are changing fast among young, educated people). You’ve apparently traveled to Nepal—sorry, but I found Kathmandu extremely dirty, and we didn’t see the kind of filth you mentioned in Bolivia. My biggest concern about pollution is the LEGITIMATE rise in living standards in China and India, which represent billions of people.

Junk food: Who imposed junk food on these poor countries? Especially when they have so little money to feed themselves and can’t afford our Label Rouge chickens or foie gras with a glass of Sauternes.

About access to the sea: No, it’s not just Morales’ political move. Since losing the War of the Pacific in 1880, Bolivia has mourned the loss of its ocean port, which left the country landlocked and cut off from trade routes. Whether under left-wing, right-wing, or dictatorial governments—or Morales’ recent Indigenous left-wing government—Bolivia’s trade has been complicated by relations with its neighbors. In all these countries in western South America, nationalist conflicts from the 20th century persist, even though the people in these regions are all cousins—Andean on one side, Hispanic on the other, with mestizos in between! They’ve suffered a lot, too, like from the Shining Path in Peru. The most recent country to suffer was Ecuador, which lost another quarter of its territory in a war with Peru in the Amazon (oh, and there’s oil there!). I was surprised to see Peruvian flags in the slums of Lima or in Ecuador.

I find this discussion purely political, completely one-sided, and full of disparagement. To me, it has nothing to do with travel. It’s unacceptable for us, as real travelers, to get involved in the political trends of the countries we visit—whether it’s Morales’ Indigenous left-wing Bolivia, Brazil’s far-right extremism, Russia’s pre-dictatorship, or Trump’s hyper-liberalism turning into shameful nationalism. Unless we still have a colonialist mindset . But then, what are tourists doing in the Emirates, Iran, Jordan, Turkey, Russia, Israel, or even... the United States? Looking at your profile, I don’t understand the tone of this discussion at all! (You seem cool, even if you’re not exactly young.)

Also, I think this discussion doesn’t belong in a travel blog at all. I’m going to report this to the administrator. It’s up to them to decide if this kind of discussion should be allowed on this site.

Happy travels to all, with amazing encounters to enrich ourselves with other civilizations

I think this discussion is purely political, completely one-sided, and full of disparagement. For me, it has nothing to do with travel.

It’s unacceptable that we, as real travelers, get caught up in the political trends of the countries we visit—even when those governments were democratically elected.

But what are tourists doing in the Emirates, Iran, Jordan, Turkey, Russia, Israel, or even... the United States?

Also, I think this discussion has no place on a travel blog.

That’s exactly what I said in my post that got censored: this political conversation doesn’t belong on a forum dedicated to tourism...

Ah! Thanks Bruno, you just took us back 50 years, to when a little snitch in the schoolyard would say "I’m gonna tell the TEACHER!" You say, "I’ll therefore report this to the administrator; it’s up to them to decide if this type of discussion can be on this site." What’s with this trend of sweeping things under the rug in the name of political correctness? Even though I don’t agree with the terms at the start of the thread, it’s precisely allowed for other opinions to be expressed, and it’s entirely relevant—politics is part of the country, and talking about it isn’t the same as getting involved.

Back to Bolivia: I had a medical emergency there, and it was a small rural clinic that saved my life. So, it’s not all doom and gloom!

After your insults that demonstrate a superior intellect (insults being so easy behind the anonymity of the Internet), and when I see the original message, which is nothing but a pile of insults and denigration toward a country: We clearly don’t share the same idea of travel: yours seems to lean more toward the colonialism of another era—coming to poor countries to preach the "right" way, which is inevitably your own, in a country of "savages" who are idiots for electing leaders with different ideas. Don’t travel, since everything is better where you are, and the rest of the world is pathetic.

For me, travel is about meeting people, trying to live a little like they do, communicating with them, listening to them, and trying to understand them—even if we’re often seen as nothing more than a "walking wallet." In the 18 countries we crossed over a year, we encountered a lot of friendship and hospitality—often far more than in France!

If I report this—and I stand by it—the original message is nothing but a pile of hate and insults and has no place on a travel blog. Only the administrator will decide, but I think the vast majority of this site’s subscribers agree with me.

I don’t want a response, because nothing can bring us together in this discussion. Goodbye!

Only the administrator will be the judge; I think the vast majority of subscribers to this site agree with me

No, not me—I’m interested in what’s being said here...

Same here: what a strange way to perceive travel—of course, in many countries, there are shocking situations (sometimes objectively, sometimes through our privileged European lens)... and we can always endlessly debate politics...

I really loved Bolivia—and I don’t agree with this so-negative assessment, including regarding Morales’ policies. But beyond the economic and political system in place, which we can always discuss, what remains (and that’s what matters most to me) are the encounters with people, the landscapes, the feelings...

Something surprises me: where did the original poster of this thread go on this forum?!!!

Junk food: who imposed junk food in these poor countries? Especially when they have very little money to feed themselves and can't afford our Label Rouge chickens or our foie gras with a glass of Sauternes.

I find this discussion purely political, completely one-sided, and derogatory. For me, it has nothing to do with travel. It's unacceptable that we, as true travelers, immerse ourselves in the political trends of the countries we visit, even if they were democratically elected—whether it's Morales' indigenous left-wing Bolivia, Brazil's far-right extremism, Russia's pre-dictatorship, or Trump's exacerbated liberalism turning into infamous nationalism. Unless one still has a backward colonialist mindset 😏 But what are tourists doing in the Emirates, Iran, Jordan, Turkey, Russia, Israel, or even... the United States? Looking at your profile, I don't understand the terms of this discussion at all! (cool vibe, though not exactly young)

Also, I think this discussion doesn't belong in a travel blog. I'm going to report this to the administrator; it's up to them to decide if this type of discussion can stay on this site.

Happy travels to all, with wonderful encounters to enrich ourselves with other civilizations

I don't share this opinion—politics obviously has everything to do with travel... Firstly, because it impacts those very travels: administrative difficulties, risks, etc. And secondly, because it prevents us from having a narrow-minded view of certain countries.

As for junk food, I don’t think the West is to blame. In Latin America, the cuisine is more hearty than refined... but that’s not a bad thing—these countries have many other qualities

Talking about politics in a travel blog to warn of personal danger, I agree. Criticizing a policy or a way of life in a democracy, I don’t agree with that. In this case, Morales was elected and re-elected by the Bolivian people, even if we don’t agree with his policies. If you completely disagree politically with a country, why go? It’s masochistic to visit something that disgusts you! Unless you have a colonialist mindset from another era. For a dictatorship, it’s different!

But it’s also good to discuss, in all honesty, when we don’t share the same opinion.

With my wife, we spent 3 weeks in Bolivia and loved it—first the landscapes, but also the people. We stayed with locals, took local buses, and tried to blend in as much as possible (even if we’ll never be Bolivian!). We made an effort to communicate, even though few speak English and our Spanish wasn’t great. We had no bad surprises in Bolivia and were welcomed everywhere. We did the same in every country we visited during our year-long round-the-world trip. When we returned, we noticed how sad and hopeless the French seem! Even the police—we met border officers and cops around the world who were sometimes smiling and kind, while in France, they’re very strict, unfriendly, and often condescending.

So when I read "Bolivia, the disaster" and the original post, I wondered if we hadn’t ended up in Somalia or Afghanistan instead of Bolivia. That message is just hate and denigration.

How would we French feel if we read an American calling us pathetic, depraved, insulting our food, and treating us like subhumans!

After this discussion, I did some research online. All I knew about Morales was that he’s an indigenous president (which I think is great), anti-American (which I also like!), and his strong speech against the U.S. at the UN in front of Trump—even if it was a bit exaggerated.

I read that Morales built a very expensive glass tower in La Paz for the presidency, which isn’t great. In his defense, I saw the old presidential palace—it really wasn’t impressive! On the other hand, the cable cars in La Paz, comparable to the best ski resort cable cars in the Alps, are a huge social benefit in my opinion.

I also read that he’s trying to stay in power, even though he shouldn’t be allowed to run for a fourth term. We need to keep an eye on him so he doesn’t turn into another Colombia, which is sliding into dictatorship. But for now, I think Bolivia is still a democracy, with its political battles—not worse than ours in France, which are often deplorable.

On the economy, Bolivia seems to have developed well since Morales’ first election. Check the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs page—it’s neutral: https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/dossiers-pays/bolivie/presentation-de-la-bolivie/

So what does this have to do with the original post in this discussion, which I find shameful (even though I hate using that word—it’s too extreme, but not enough in this case)?

Food: a big debate. During our round-the-world trip, I only truly enjoyed the food in Vietnam—for its diversity and finesse (nothing like Vietnamese restaurants in France!). For the rest: How well we eat in France! I went to the mountains in Peru 20 years ago. Even if the Quechua shepherds’ cuisine is repetitive, it’s very natural and delicious (llama meat, guinea pig, millet, corn, potatoes, etc.). The cooks in restaurants aren’t Michelin-starred chefs, sure, but I think the local food is maybe more natural than what’s sold to us in France. Markets like the one in Sucre: what a feast for the eyes! And I have no bad memories of the restaurants.

Cheers,

I actually found, like you, that the original poster’s text—which, by the way, they never came back to argue—was completely one-sided and very pejorative... I do agree with you that if we’re against a country’s political regime, we shouldn’t go there... nothing forces us to spend our vacations in a country whose politics we disapprove of.

As for Morales, like many politicians, he struggles to let go of power... but he’s not the only one in that situation.... 🤪

For the food, we really enjoyed the meals in PERU (which already has a reputation for having the best cuisine in South America). In Colombia, where I just returned from, you can find great restaurants, of course, but the overuse of bananas in every form (which I personally don’t love) didn’t sit too well with me...

Here’s a fine speech that could easily be linked to a strong Popular Right sentiment. Unfortunately, I sense some remarks that hark back to the colonialism of a certain era. It would have been better to discuss things with the locals. I see a vision of what makes some French tourists eternal complainers—next time, try to understand what’s really going on, and never forget that you’re a tourist and only see one side of life in the countries you visit. If you go to India or China, you’ll understand what pollution really means. And what about the pollution caused by nuclear power plants in France, huh?

Here in Canada, we’ve got our tar sands and our own corruption, but even though we speak French, we’ve learned to be a lot more humble than the typical French tourist…

Hi Alain,

Attribal is Belgian or at least lives in Belgium! It’s insulting to the Right and the People to qualify this statement that way. Besides, our nuclear power plants pollute cleanly. The point of this post is to learn more about Bolivia through the reactions it provokes. I admit that the French are often "whiners"—I love that expression, especially in a group. However, most of those who organize their own trips are open to a different way of seeing life. Isn’t that the point of traveling?

I’m another one:

Alain

but even though we speak French, we learned to be a lot more humble than the French tourist…..

hmm, I lived in Quebec and Quebecers can also be pretty arrogant... but anyway, that’s not the point—moving on! 😛

Hey,

As a Bolivian, I’m really glad to hear you won’t be returning to our lands. Other people have appreciated the hospitality, humility, and kindness of my fellow countrymen, as well as the natural treasures Bolivia is overflowing with. Plus, in Cochabamba, where I was born, the food is pretty damn good! To each their own, as they say.

When it comes to education (in the institutional sense), while it may not be the best, it has still managed to produce excellent professionals and intellectuals like Manuel Alejandro Olivera Andrade, winner of the UNESCO/Juan Bosch Prize for his work titled *"Factores de riesgo para el proyecto estatal de aprovechamiento del litio del salar de Uyuni: Gobernanza, mercado y extractivismo histórico"*, which translates to "Risk Factors in the Government’s Lithium Exploitation Project in the Uyuni Salt Flats: Governance, Market, and Historical Extractivism." You can imagine we’re not just mindless idiots lacking the ability to think, imagine, and achieve sustainable development for our country.

Bolivia has so much to offer. Despite centuries of suffering, enslavement, and massive looting, generosity—and sometimes naivety—remain widespread traits across the country. That said, after so many setbacks, it’s understandable that Bolivians don’t trust just anyone. Naive, but not that stupid.

Well said, man!

Bolivia has so much to offer. Despite centuries of suffering, enslavement, and massive looting, generosity and sometimes naivety remain widespread traits across the country. However, it’s understandable that after so many setbacks, Bolivians don’t trust just anyone. Naive, but not that stupid.

This comes a little late, but it rings so true. Since I’ve got a Bolivian friend who seems to speak French better than I do, I’m really tempted to ask his opinion on what’s happening in Bolivia right now and how he sees the future of this country—which, I have to say (no offense to Atribal), I love deeply. (And yeah, you can *really* eat well in Cochabamba! But I avoided the fruit yogurts, gotta say... you’d have to be crazy to eat fruit yogurt in Bolivia...😛)