So where are they and what are they doing? (page 22 of 33)

There’s no problem walking around in a knee-length dress with your hair down in Iran and Afghanistan (the only countries in question)? 😮

It’s not just in those two countries that it’s an issue. In most Muslim countries, actually. (And increasingly so, which wasn’t necessarily the case before.) I’ve never walked around in a knee-length dress in Egypt either, nor in Syria, nor in Jordan...

Iran now: Even if their situation isn’t enviable, Iranian women have always had the right to drive, study, and work. Saudi women, despite some progress in that area, did they have that possibility a few years ago? The thing is, we demonize some countries and not others... I went to Iran a few years ago, and the image I got of the country was quite different from the one presented by the media. That same year, I was given the best-selling book *Not Without My Daughter* by Betty Mahmoody. On the cover, there’s a photo of a woman with her face completely covered. That’s a lie. I never saw covered faces in Iran. But it’s true, the hijab is still mandatory there. And yes, it’s shocking. As a tourist, I couldn’t escape that rule either. Back then, I had quite a few conversations with women. They were exhausted by the mandatory hijab and the morality police checks.

Afghanistan, I don’t know firsthand. From what I read and hear, it’s hell on earth. And yet, during the decade of the Russian occupation supporting the Afghan communist government against the Islamist Mujahideen rebels, women in Kabul had enjoyed a certain Western-style freedom. They’ve fallen from quite a height since then. Poor women. 😕 (Just to be clear, I’m not saying I support the Russian political regime... But credit where credit’s due.) To get back to the topic, Georgia is a beautiful country. I really love Central Asia (even if Georgia isn’t exactly in Central Asia...)

It’s not just in these two countries that it’s a problem.

There are actually a whole bunch of countries where it’s better not to be a woman. Not necessarily Muslim ones, either. (I’m thinking of India.)

But as far as I know, only two countries kill over a lock of hair.

Even Saudi Arabia no longer forces women to cover their heads.

I’ve never walked around in a knee-length dress in Egypt either, ..., or in Jordan...

I have.

I went to Iran a few years ago, and the image I got of the country was quite different from the one presented by the media.

Yes and no.

Yes, Iranians as a whole aren’t religious fanatics. They drink, they party, they have mixed-gender relationships... Basically, they enjoy life and would love to do so openly.

No, the Iranian state isn’t any different from what’s described in the news.

When I mention Iran or Afghanistan, I’m talking about the current regime, not the people in those two unfortunate countries.

That’s the whole difference between us, Jean Luc; I don’t pass moral judgment on viewpoints that aren’t my own.

Am I the Monsieur Jourdain of morality? I’m simply offering support to a participant stunned by your Prévert-style inventories. And look at how condescendingly you treat those who oppose you with different viewpoints. But you never doubt your own... moral superiority.

I should refrain from expressing viewpoints, even referenced ones...

Who’s asking you to refrain? At most, it would be appreciated if you made an effort to drop your specious reasoning. If their repetition were just tiresome, we’d put up with it—even if it’s tough—but too often, your bitterness and victimhood obsessions are an insult to the oppressed (the *real* ones, mind you, those oppressed today by regimes you favor).

As for these “referenced viewpoints,” you’ll find them across all ideologies—so many groups are convinced they hold the truth. Does that make them *universally* valid? That’s what you imply to anyone who doesn’t applaud you, and they end up belittled.

... because they ruffle your feathers?

Did I ever say that? My hair’s as stubborn as your neck is stiff. Though Attila seems to really mess with your style.

Georgia has mostly moved much closer to Russia.

And especially the opposite. (The problem with propagandists is they can never think against their own certainties.)

Agnès is heading to Central Asia soon—it’ll change her perspective on a lot of things.

Wanna bet a croissant? 😎

In Egypt, I didn’t stroll around in a dress—I wore cropped pants and a tank top, and I regretted it. It was evening in the streets of Cairo. You never think enough about these things.

What surprised Egyptians the most wasn’t the length of my skirt, but that I beat them at backgammon... 😄

And yet, during the decade of Russian occupation aimed at supporting the Afghan communist government against the Islamist Mujahideen rebels, women in Kabul were able to enjoy a certain Western-style freedom. They’ve fallen from quite a height since then.

It was the USSR, not Russia, and it was even better for them during the 20 years of American occupation. And now, they’ve fallen from a great height. Just giving credit where it’s due... 😉

(even if Georgia isn’t exactly located in Central Asia...)

Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll add that the project to join the EU and NATO is written into the Georgian constitution.

Just a reminder of the topic:

I’m still seeing, much to my surprise, fewer travel journals, way fewer messages, and way fewer questions. I don’t see many new members logging in, and I see quite a few connected members who aren’t participating—or aren’t participating anymore.

Something’s not adding up for me because, in my opinion, VF is still appealing, and I don’t see which other sites could really compete.

Was there a real break between pre- and post-Covid? Does it just take more time for some people to discover the site or learn that it’s active again? Do people now prefer quick consumption on sites like FB or others I don’t know about? Where have the old-timers gone, and what are they doing with their time now? What’s really going on?

Good evening Jean-Luc,

No joke? Come on, come on. I left Georgia on August 8, 2008, on a Turkish coach, half an hour before the Russian missiles hit Gori. The people I left behind hated Mr. Saakashvili and the Americans in Hummers parading on the hills of Tbilisi and buying up villas and land. I even ran into B. Ivanishvili once in a while. Those same people have been marching in recent weeks for the country’s EU membership, waving European flags, even though back then they completely rejected the idea, mocking their "orientality." So much for grand principles and moral lessons...

I don’t know why I seem to irritate you so much, Agnès, Laurence, one or two others, and yourself, but I’m waiting for your experiences and arguments—yet they never come.

Michel

As a former member—I’m not necessarily representative of the group, though 😛—I read but don’t always feel like participating. I often sigh and roll my eyes, and not just in this discussion.

Travel journals poured in as soon as the site reopened, but most were reposted from other forums. The photo contest is on life support. I wanted to ask questions about Istanbul but found answers right away on the GDR. In quite a few discussions, there’s a lot of "insider" talk.

Something escapes me because, in my opinion, VF is still attractive, and I don’t see which other sites could compete.

You’re right. And yet, the one created by former VF members is doing really well. Fewer people, but more activity.

Was there a real break between pre- and post-Covid?

Yes, or rather, between before and after VF reopened.

Does it just take more time for some to discover the site or learn it’s active again?

I think after 6 months, the deal is sealed.

Do people now prefer a form of quick consumption on sites like FB or others I don’t know?

Who are "people"? Not me, that’s for sure.

Where did the old-timers go, and what are they doing with their time now?

You’re joking, right? They’re feeding themselves differently ;)

I left Georgia on August 8, 2008

The Georgian constitution, which provides for joining the EU and NATO, dates back to 1995.

I don’t know what it is about me that irritates you so much, Agnès, Laurence, one or two others, and yourselfs, but I’m still waiting for your experiences and arguments—yet they never come.

Perhaps you should try reading without preconceptions.

Alright, you read the French official press diligently, alright, you hate it when people question the versions it puts out, but still.

We’ve told you before: there’s no such thing as the "French official press." That only exists in the imagination of conspiracy theorists. If you’d like, I can put together a selection for you tomorrow on the same topic from *L'Humanité*, *La Croix*, *Le Figaro*, *Le Monde*, *L'Opinion*, *Les Échos*, *Libération*, etc. You’ll see there’s just as much difference between them as there is between you and me.

The photo contest is dying, in my opinion it's mainly because of the themes chosen, especially the last two.

The Georgian constitution, which provides for accession to the EU and NATO, dates from 1995

So what? The things that were set in the chaos of that time...

We’ve already told you: the "official French press" doesn’t exist.

Of course it does—much to the detriment of freedom of speech.

Michel

I’m struggling to copy the Kola method—post a message and then disappear.🙂

There isn’t, and never has been, a Kola method. Maybe just a passing weariness with certain overbearing presences, and definitely other priorities… rather than the obsessive goal of having the last word.🙂

It was a compliment. Or rather a hint of admiration.

It was the USSR, not Russia

Oops! The Soviet occupation, I’ll correct that...

it was even better for them during the 20 years of American occupation.

Economically speaking, yeah, probably.

A compliment... a touch of admiration

A touch that opens a chink in the armor 🙂, like a light feather fluttering around the busybodies and the relentless hammer-wielders.

A few grams of gentleness in this brutal world

Yes, Iranians as a whole aren’t religious fanatics. They drink, they party, they have mixed-gender relationships... In short, they enjoy life and would love to do so openly.

This is especially true in big cities. Drinking is still pretty tricky, but it does happen sometimes—just in secret, of course.😉 We never managed to find any when we were there. Back then, the only thing available was "Islamic beer," which has no alcohol at all. You’ve gotta really like it...

Have you been to Iran recently?

You’ve probably heard this before: the "official French press" doesn’t exist.

You might want to be a bit more nuanced, though, because we’re seeing a well-orchestrated consensus in French public opinion—a result of this non-pluralistic press. For example, today it’s clearly "Trump is evil," yesterday it was "Putin is evil," and before that it was "Zelensky, the brave captain" or "Raoult, the conspiracy theorist." The timing is perfect: you go to social gatherings, and you’re served the day’s talking points on who’s the "good guy" or the "bad guy." As for the arguments? They’re simplistic, nonexistent, or just plain wrong.

Yet the "conspiracy" is based on the fact that the press is state-subsidized—even *L’Humanité*—so you can’t bite the hand that feeds you. The media is in the hands of a few billionaires, with all the consequences you can imagine for newsrooms. There’s no major opposition newspaper left. The press has far fewer journalists than it used to, which is why it often just regurgitates AFP dispatches.

With your usual talent, I trust you to gather articles on the same topic from different newspapers. As for me, given my laziness, I could point out topics that don’t appear in the mainstream written or broadcast media. Is that a consensus too? I’m thinking of a serious issue with major implications that the whole world is talking about—but it’s completely absent from national news outlets. Radio silence, as they say.

That’s why I feed my conspiratorial appetite with all the alternative channels online. But I’m a glutton for punishment, so I still enjoy LCI for the spectacle (especially Nivat’s outfits) and to know what the ideological "ready-to-wear" of the moment is.

I’ve never been to Iran (see: mandatory disguise). I could’ve looked the other way at one point because the mullahs’ madness seemed to be giving way to modern desires. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the case, and things quickly reverted to normal.

My ex went to Iran. He liked it. He drank alcohol. It was the vehicle’s driver who organized (and offered...) that forbidden moment.