No, I Won’t Be Going Back to China (page 5 of 13)

Terrifying! I’ve been living in Shanghai for 6 months now and I fully intend to stay. I’ve never experienced the situations you mentioned, but I often overhear French tourists talking: the Chinese spit on the ground, they’re hypocritical, etc. I went to university in Strasbourg and then Paris, and I saw way more spit on the sidewalks there than here. The vast majority of Chinese people I know are extremely courteous, and you can build very strong friendships with them. But first, you have to stay humble, listen, and learn. I completely understand why a horde of loud, never-satisfied French tourists would get what they deserve. Plus, it seems like you took a "budget" trip since you had to wash your clothes in a laundromat. The price of dry cleaning in hotels is absolutely negligible compared to France, even in high-end hotels! As for your opinion on the food, complain to your travel agency, but don’t insult the Chinese. Finally, don’t be surprised if you got jostled in the most tourist-infested places. You won’t be going back to China? I hope you’re right...

Good evening, Well said, I completely agree with your analysis. Indeed, we traveled alone in China (just like in every other country in the world) and were pleasantly surprised compared to everything we’d heard or read. I noticed that the Chinese only stand out for their rudeness when they travel in "large" groups—they want to see everything, take photos of everything, get the best spots in front of monuments, etc. Exactly like all tourists worldwide who travel in groups and have to rush because their time is limited!!!!!!! See you around, Best regards

Exactly, "may God hear you." Since 2000, I’ve been visiting Asia every two years. I avoid tourists (especially the French)! Because they’re rarely happy with their lot—always complaining about flight delays, the food, the prices, etc., etc... I also spend two weeks a year in France. For the same quality as in China, I have to pay double, and French courtesy isn’t always up to par!

This past month in China (September 2018), I had deep and friendly connections. My laundry at the hotel was always done for free! I stayed in "truly charming" hotels where I was ALWAYS warmly welcomed! Clean rooms of at least 30 m² for around 50 €. So, back to northern China in 2020. And I’m leaving this discussion because, for me,

YES, I WILL RETURN TO CHINA!

I love this thread. We're told that the younger generation is correcting their elders' tendency to cut in line, but we're also told that the Chinese are courteous and respectful. Go figure... So what exactly are the young people correcting, then? 😇

It's obvious that the Chinese don't have the same upbringing as Western countries (I wouldn't even dare compare to Scandinavian countries), and naturally, some of their behaviors can seem shocking (the opposite is probably true too). We can understand these differences, but that doesn't mean we should deny them...

Terrifying! I’ve been living in Shanghai for six months now and plan to stay. I’ve never experienced the situations you’re talking about, but I often overhear French tourists saying things like Chinese people spit on the ground, are hypocritical, etc. I went to university in Strasbourg and then Paris, and I saw way more spit on the sidewalks there than here. The vast majority of Chinese people I know are extremely courteous, and you can build really strong friendships with them. But first, you have to stay humble, listen, and learn. I totally get why a horde of loud, never-satisfied French tourists would get what they deserve. Plus, it sounds like you took a "budget" trip since you had to do your laundry at a laundromat. The cost of dry cleaning in hotels here is absolutely negligible compared to France, even in high-end hotels! As for your opinion on the food, complain to your travel agent, but don’t insult the Chinese. And don’t be surprised if you got jostled in the most tourist-infested places. You won’t be going back to China? God willing...

Who said anything about a budget trip? Did I insult anyone?

God heard me—next year, it’ll be somewhere else 😄

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one with positive feelings about China and the Chinese. Personally, I feel very much at ease there, having no issues with relationships even though I don’t speak Chinese yet. Just learning to say hello, thank you, and goodbye is enough to trigger friendly smiles.

But I wanted to correct you on the idea that China was never colonized by Europeans. Whoa! You should urgently read Alain Peyrefitte’s excellent book *The Immobile Empire*. Not only did we colonize it, but alongside our British friends, we killed, looted, raped, and burned everything that didn’t even resist us. Below, I’ve included a link to Victor Hugo’s letter of outrage on the subject. We introduced opium to better enslave them. Yet the Chinese don’t hold it against us—probably because they read Victor Hugo’s letter in school and are also taught that the France of Human Rights and General de Gaulle was the first to recognize the existence of Communist China, liberated from the yoke of the West.

I invite Ericdu38 to come to Shanghai alone with his family and stroll around the streets near the Bund. He won’t see people in a hurry but busy, won’t be jostled or stared at like an alien. He can have his laundry washed and ironed for just a few euros. With the *Routard* guide, he’ll discover the city’s many parks where people sing, dance, or practice Tai Chi in a calm that doesn’t exist in Paris. He can obviously explore the countless restaurants serving dishes from all over China and even find excellent fries and remarkable Burgundy snails.

Here’s a summary of Alain Peyrefitte’s book: The Immobile Empire or The Clash of Worlds Did you know that during the French Revolution, the British sent an expedition of five ships and seven hundred men to the Chinese Empire to "open it up" to them? That they, though only eight million strong, intended to negotiate proudly as equals with a country of three hundred thirty million—the third of humanity? That China, considering itself "the only civilization under Heaven," brutally rejected all their demands? That it treated their envoys like high-ranking prisoners? That they were subjected—from Macao to Tartary, through the rituals of the Court and the surprises of the City, among celestial bureaucrats and missionary-hostages—to a true initiatory journey? That this historic opportunity was a missed encounter?

The reader will embark on a double initiatory journey with them: into the depths of the Middle Empire, enclosed in a frozen perfection, but also into the British Empire, driven by its rise; toward the identity of the Far East, as well as that of the Far West; toward the essence of dirigisme and that of liberalism.

Lord Macartney’s mission in a China at its peak highlights the clash of two cultures: the brilliant Chinese civilization, over forty centuries old, and the young Western civilization, propelled by the combined effects of intellectual, scientific, technological, commercial, maritime, agronomic, industrial, and financial revolutions. A second mission, in 1816, led by Lord Amherst, received an even more humiliating welcome. To access China, the British decided to use force: this was the dishonorable Opium War. A refined society collapsed under the weight of its isolation and immobility. This dramatic sequence sheds new light on the dual enigma of "development" and "underdevelopment."

Victor Hugo’s letter to Captain Butler, 1860: https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2004/10/HUGO/11563

Let’s set the record straight.

We’re told that the younger generation is correcting their elders’ tendency to cut in line, but we’re also told that the Chinese are courteous and respectful. Go figure...

Congrats, you’ve just discovered the principle of a forum, where different people can have different experiences and feelings 👏😄. So they exchange, compare their opinions. It’s a bit shocking at first, but you get used to it.

Yeah, the whole point of a forum is that you can read all sorts of opinions—even completely opposite ones. You just have to know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

But when it comes to an objective fact, it’s more unsettling. Do Chinese people really tend to scam, as you’ve described, or are they polite and courteous, as others claim?

ONE story (or two, three, or ten) turns into "Chinese" with a tendency to scam. Honestly, this thread is pure gold! 😄

Well, everyone’s got a story about some Chinese person spitting, scamming, or yelling, and I’ve got to say I’ll never believe anyone who claims they’ve never seen it. That said, the question remains: can we generally think of this as a trend, or is it actually really rare behavior that the rest of the population condemns?

I’ve only been to China four times, and for me, the reality falls somewhere in between—but more toward one side than the other. Still, I’d happily go back, especially since, as Xagga pointed out, it’s a cheap destination. Even if I do prefer Japan, where the question above doesn’t even come up.

Sorry, but living in Shanghai for 6 months doesn’t mean you know China. It’s like living in NYC for 6 months and claiming you know the US, or spending a little time in Paris and boasting that you know Europe (which, by the way, many Chinese people actually do...).

We’ll see what you say in 6 years. I spent 3 years in Shanghai and have been in Shenzhen for 2 years now. Shanghai isn’t China. The people there are much more refined, international, open-minded, and educated. Shanghai has its own history and culture, shaped by outside influences and a certain art of living. Other Chinese people are almost ashamed of it, while Shanghai locals are proud of it. You’ll see—once you leave Shanghai and speak Chinese with the general population, you’ll find that most Chinese people *hate* Shanghai locals because they’re different, and it touches a nerve... They’ll call them arrogant, pretentious, effeminate... when really, they’re just cleaner, more open-minded, and better educated.

I can tell you that outside Shanghai, you’re dealing with proud rustics who spit everywhere, aren’t always honest, and are very nationalistic. And let’s not even talk about the mediocre service, which reflects the lack of respect given to anyone outside their inner circle.

Just last Friday, I was at the counter topping up my metro pass. I’d barely handed my card to the clerk when a woman—who couldn’t have been 40—suddenly appeared out of nowhere, shoved me aside without a second thought, and slapped her card down, telling the employee, "Add 50." And there wasn’t even a line—just her and me. This is typical, everyday behavior: rude, pushy, *I’m paying so I get priority*. Yeah, well, I’m paying too, and the clerk had already started helping me, so I think you can wait 40 seconds.

I see a lot of well-meaning folks painting a picture of younger generations calling out their elders for bad manners. Open your eyes—it’s nonsense. This only happens because you’re a foreigner and it’s obvious you don’t live here. 90% of the time, people will walk all over you without hesitation, no matter their age, especially if they think they’re richer than you (a pretty relative criterion, but hey, it makes them feel good, so let’s not bruise their new-money pride).

Anyway, I’m pretty amused reading all these comments from people who’ve only seen China through a tourist’s eyes, yet feel qualified to defend the country wholeheartedly when they barely know it... and who don’t seem any more legitimate than the person who started this thread to judge the country, despite what they might think. Why start off so aggressively when your experience is just as relative as theirs?

Believe me, no Chinese person would bother defending your country the way you’re defending theirs. And when you’re treated well as a tourist, just remember—it’s all a commercial facade, a community reflex drilled into them by local propaganda. They’re constantly fed the idea that they must show foreigners their best face because the authorities know you don’t catch flies with vinegar, and you don’t spit on a smiling face—even if everything they do is designed to swindle you and subtly assert dominance over anything that moves.

So I’ll say it again: I agree with the person who opened this topic. While Chinese people can be endearing and friendly, it’s undeniable that they’re also disrespectful, rude, and selfish—borderline egotistical. Not to mention their questionable hygiene standards.

As for the argument that "China is so far away, so it’s different"—sorry, but NO. Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and Australia are also far away, and yet they manage to be polite and respectful. The current behavior of Chinese people isn’t the result of some cultural difference—it’s the legacy of communism, which wiped out culture, and the worship of money, which erases respect for others. And let’s be honest: if they wanted to change, they could, but they seem pretty happy with themselves, so don’t hold your breath.

We introduced opium there to better enslave them. But the Chinese don’t hold it against us.

Two sentences, two mistakes and oversimplifications. It wasn’t to enslave China that the British forcibly introduced opium—produced in their Indian colony—into China, but to restore a trade balance that had become catastrophically lopsided. China was exporting a lot of goods (especially porcelain, silk, and tea) and importing almost nothing, accumulating an ever-growing share of Europe’s silver reserves as the silver mines in Mexico and Peru were running dry.

Chinese government propaganda never misses a chance to harp on the humiliations suffered in the 19th century. Western visitors usually don’t notice, since this internal propaganda is never translated. Besides, it doesn’t seem to resonate with the Chinese either—across all social classes, they have an idealized vision of France, full of romance and luxury (how many times have I heard the cliché 法国人很浪漫 = the French are so romantic!).

On another note, the summary of Alain Peyrefitte’s excellent book is strangely off-base compared to the actual text. While this encounter was indeed a missed opportunity (the word the author uses), it was because the British sought purely commercial relations, whereas the Chinese saw the mission as recognition of the vassalage of those distant foreigners. The Macartney mission was doomed to fail due to this mutual misunderstanding.

Sorry, but living in Shanghai for six months doesn’t mean you know China. It’s like living in NYC for six months and claiming you know the US, or spending a little time in Paris and boasting that you know Europe (which, by the way, many Chinese people actually do...).

We’ll see what you say in six years. I spent three years in Shanghai and have been in Shenzhen for two. Shanghai isn’t China. The people there are much more refined, international, open-minded, and educated. Shanghai has its own history and culture, shaped by outside influences and a certain way of life. Other Chinese people are almost ashamed of it, while Shanghai locals are proud. You’ll see—once you leave Shanghai and speak Chinese to the general population, most Chinese people *hate* Shanghai locals because they’re different. It brings out a certain complex in them... They’ll call them arrogant, pretentious, effeminate... when really, they’re just cleaner, more open, and better educated.

I can tell you that outside Shanghai, you’re dealing with proud, rough people who *want* to be that way. They spit everywhere, aren’t always honest, and are very nationalistic. And don’t even get me started on the mediocre service—it’s a reflection of the lack of respect given to anyone outside their inner circle.

Just last Friday, I was at the counter topping up my metro pass. I’d barely handed my card to the clerk when a woman—maybe not even 40—shoved me aside without a second thought and slapped her card down, telling the employee, "Add 50." And there wasn’t even a line—just her and me. That’s typical daily behavior here: rude, pushy, *I’m paying so I’m right.* Yeah, well, so am I, and the employee had already started helping me, so maybe you could wait 40 seconds.

I see all these well-meaning people painting a picture of a new generation calling out the older one for bad manners. Open your eyes—it’s nonsense. This only happens because you’re a foreigner and it’s obvious you don’t live here. 90% of the time, people will walk all over you without a second thought, no matter their age, and *especially* if they think they’re richer than you (a pretty relative criterion, but hey, it makes them feel good, so let’s not bruise their new-money pride).

Anyway, I’m kind of amused reading all these comments from people who’ve only seen China through a tourist’s eyes, defending the country wholeheartedly when they barely know it... and who don’t seem any more qualified than the person who started this thread to judge the place, despite what they might think. Why start off so harshly when your experience is often just as relative as theirs?

Believe me, no Chinese person would bother defending your country the way you’re defending theirs. And when you’re treated well as a tourist, just remember—it’s all a commercial facade, a community reflex drilled into them by local propaganda. They’re constantly fed the idea that they *have* to show foreigners their best side because it serves the authorities’ strategy. You don’t catch flies with vinegar, and you don’t spit on a smiling face—even if everything they do is designed to swindle you and subtly assert dominance over anything that moves.

So I’ll say it again: I agree with the person who opened this topic. While Chinese people can be endearing and friendly, it’s undeniable that they’re also disrespectful, rude, and selfish—borderline egotistical. Not to mention their questionable hygiene standards.

As for the argument that "China’s on the other side of the world, so it’s different"—sorry, but no. Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and Australia are also far away, and that doesn’t stop them from being polite and respectful. The current behavior of Chinese people isn’t the result of some cultural difference—it’s communism, which wiped out culture, and a worship of money, which strips away respect for others. And let’s be real: if they wanted to change, they could. But they seem pretty happy with themselves, so don’t hold your breath.

Good evening,

I read your account, and since you live there, of course your experience is different from ours—we only spent a month as tourists, visiting six provinces. It’s true that we loved China. It was a beautiful trip with so many incredible things to see. We didn’t see Chinese people the way they’re often described. We loved how they danced, sang, did group exercises, and played music in all the parks we visited—there are so many! To us, it seemed peaceful, and it looked like people were happy doing things together. But I’m not disputing your experience—after all, you deal with them all year round.

That said, we’ve also been to the countries you mentioned (except Japan), staying two months in each. I don’t share your opinion. In Vietnam and Thailand, everyone’s a "salesperson"—they grab you constantly to sell you something, won’t let go, and if you look at a shirt, they’ll force you to check out pants or something else. At restaurants, the second you sit down, they shove the menu at you and expect you to order immediately, without giving you time to figure it out. Like I said in an earlier post, in those two countries, we didn’t even get a hint of passing friendship. They smile and quote you prices four times higher, but the second you walk away without buying, their faces change—like emojis: smile, no smile. We were even told that French people are cheap because we wouldn’t buy everything they offered at whatever price!!! Mexico, which we loved (we have a soft spot for South American countries), is very dirty. Dead animals and trash line the roads. It’s noisy day and night—you can’t sleep without earplugs—but the people are cheerful and charming.

As for Australia, a very expensive country, I can’t really speak to the people in small or big cities—they’re indifferent, like you don’t even exist. But we loved driving thousands of kilometers through the empty bush and seeing kangaroos and wallabies.

So in conclusion, every country—and everyone—has its flaws. Nothing’s perfect.

Just one small question out of curiosity: Why do you keep living in a country that clashes so much with our French values and upbringing?

Best regards.

Thanks for all these details—it’s really useful to be reminded of them sometimes. I’ll be going back to China! 再见

Well, to each their own... We spent as much time as you did in the countries you mentioned, except for Vietnam where we only stayed for 2 weeks, and we had a completely different experience! In every country, we didn’t encounter any harassment or forced sales—almost always great interactions. And aside from certain areas of Mexico City, Mexico left a much stronger impression on us with its beauty and diversity than with its dirt.

To be honest, we weren’t expecting to love Vietnam much because we’d heard mixed reviews back in France. But all my foreign colleagues based in Shenzhen, like me, came back raving about it, especially about the "warm and human" contact with people, which is a nice change from the latent aggression we deal with daily here. And we totally agreed with that!

As for why we live in China, it’s purely professional reasons. But the current stint is almost over—YES!! And this experience in Guangdong will at least have the merit of showing us just how deep the gap is between Shanghai and the rest of the country. For us, it’s clear: in the future, we won’t accept a job in China unless it’s in Shanghai. Because while all the little quirks I described in my previous post were kind of amusing when we were based in Shanghai and just visiting other regions for a week or two, it’s a lot less fun when they become your daily reality.

It’s a shame to leave a country like China feeling that—for now (and likely for a long time to come)—only a bubble of 20 million people meets the standard, but that’s our experience, and unfortunately, we don’t see much changing that impression.

To each their own, I guess! We’ve spent as much time as you in the countries you mentioned—except Vietnam, where we only stayed for two weeks—and our experience was completely different. In every country, we didn’t face any harassment or aggressive sales, and we almost always had great interactions. Aside from certain areas of Mexico City, Mexico left a much stronger impression on us for its beauty and diversity than for its dirtiness.

Honestly, we weren’t expecting to love Vietnam much since we’d heard mixed reviews back in France. But all my foreign colleagues based in Shenzhen like me came back raving about it, especially about the "warm and human" connections with people, which is a nice change from the everyday latent aggression here. And we totally agreed with that!

As for why we live in China, it’s purely for work. But our current stint is almost over—YES!! At least this experience in Guangdong has shown us just how deep the gap is between Shanghai and the rest of the country. For us, it’s clear: in the future, we won’t accept a job in China unless it’s in Shanghai. Because while all the little quirks I described in my previous post were kind of amusing when we were based in Shanghai and visiting other regions for a week or two, they’re a lot less fun when they become your daily reality.

It’s too bad to leave a country like China feeling that—for now, and likely for a long time—only a 20-million-person bubble is up to par. But that’s our experience, and unfortunately, we don’t see much changing that.

Hello,

Thanks for answering my somewhat nosy question—actually, I should’ve guessed it was work keeping you there. But I’m going to push my luck and ask if there are any beautiful places to visit in the province where you live, whether monuments or nature? We’ve visited the following places and their surroundings, seeing everything there was to see: Beijing, Xi’an, Chengdu, Kunming, Lijiang, Shanghai. We were amazed by: Beijing and its grand historical monuments, the Great Wall, the giant Buddha of Leshan, the Stone Forest (so impressive!), a day on the Li River, Dragon Mountain up to 5,000 m, the Terracotta Army, etc... Could you tell me, if it’s not too much trouble, which other provinces still have really beautiful sites? Thanks in advance. Best regards,

No problem! You seem to have already covered the main classics, but here are some suggestions:

If you haven’t already explored around Beijing, Pingyao and Chengde should appeal to you, as well as the Yungang Caves, not far from Datong.

On the coast, facing Taiwan, Fujian with its Hakka country (visit the tulou) and landscapes between sea and mountains.

Further inland, the Zhangjiajie site, which inspired the landscapes of *Avatar*. They built a glass pedestrian bridge spanning a gorge. It’s impressive but always packed. And honestly, the crowd’s behavior really ruins the visit.

Around Chengdu, have you seen the pandas and Jiuzhaigou National Park? The latter offers beautiful landscapes, but you’ll need to plan your visit carefully due to the park’s national status and its constraints.

Further north, you could visit Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang, which feels much more like Central Asia than China (for the latter, be aware that the region isn’t always open to foreigners—it’s a bit of a gamble).

Finally, around Shanghai, if you haven’t already: Hangzhou and especially part of Anhui (Tunxi, sunrise in the Huang Shan mountains, and old water towns like Hongcun and Xidi). They’re packed too, but it doesn’t necessarily ruin the visit—especially if you go on a weekday, outside of Chinese holidays.

Of course, there’s also Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. I haven’t been to Taiwan, but I’ve only heard good things: friendly and welcoming people happy to see tourists, a unique culture and vibe, a mix of old Chinese culture and Japanese respect. And Tibet if you have the means—though it’s not always open to foreigners, and you’ll need a mandatory (and expensive) guide/spy from an agency, all at your own expense.

No problem! Indeed, you seem to have done the main classics. But here are some suggestions:

If you haven't already done so around Beijing, Pingyao and Chengde should appeal to you, as well as the Yungang Caves, not far from Datong.

On the coast, facing Taiwan, Fujian with its Hakka country (visit the tulou) and landscapes between sea and mountains.

Further inland, the Zhangjiajie site, which inspired the landscapes of Avatar. They built a glass pedestrian bridge that crosses a gorge. Impressive but always packed. And honestly, the crowd's behavior really ruins the visit there too.

Around Chengdu, have you seen the pandas and Jiuzhaigou National Park? The latter offers beautiful landscapes, but you need to plan your visit carefully due to quite a few constraints related to its national park status.

Further north, you could visit Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang, which feels much more like Central Asia than China (for the latter, be aware that the region isn't always open to foreigners—it's hit or miss).

Finally, great spots around Shanghai if you haven't already done them: Hangzhou and especially part of Anhui (Tunxi, sunrise in the Huang Shan mountains, and old water towns like Hongcun and Xidi. Also packed, but it doesn’t necessarily ruin the visit this time, especially if you go on a weekday outside Chinese holidays).

Of course, there’s also Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. I haven’t been to Taiwan, but I’ve only heard good things: open and welcoming people who are happy to see tourists, a unique culture and atmosphere, a mix of old Chinese culture and Japanese influence. And Tibet if you can afford it, though it’s not always open to foreigners, and you’re required to have a guide/spy and an agency—all at your own expense.

Thank you so much for your quick response. This is really helpful (we’ve already been to Hong Kong and Macau), as we’re considering going back to China, and your insights will help me plan an itinerary and refine it with travel guides and websites. But nothing beats firsthand experience from someone who lives there. See you later, Best regards

Nimen hao

A little anecdote on a bus: now that smoking is banned in public places, I don’t think tobacco consumption has really decreased. So, on the bus I boarded in a small town deep in Yunnan, all the men were smoking. My Chinese is way too weak to give a speech, but silent gestures can be surprisingly powerful. So when I walked past the smokers, I simply pointed to the shiny new no-smoking sticker above their heads. They either put out their cigarettes or tossed them out the window if they were by it. And lots of little smiles bloomed on the faces of the other passengers who hadn’t dared to say anything.

That’s why I’ll return to China.

In which other provinces can you still find very beautiful sites?

Hi Anna,

For my very first trip to China, I explored the Chinese part of the Silk Road in September 2018, including the provinces of Xinjiang (officially an autonomous region), Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi.

My top cultural sites: - The Mogao Caves in Dunhuang (northern Gansu). - Majishan, south of Tianshui (Gansu). - Qutan Si Monastery (southeast of Xining, Qinghai). - The Binglingsi Caves (southern Gansu). - The Gansu Provincial Museum in Lanzhou (Gansu). - Ta'er Si Monastery (near Xining, Qinghai), despite heavy Han crowds. - The Qing village of Dangjiacun. - The Confucian Temple in Hancheng.

My top natural sites: - The Karakoram Highway, between Tashkorgan and Kashgar, - The Danxia landforms northwest of Zhangye, packed with people but well-organized. - The natural setting of Binglingsi (Gansu), with its cliffs along the Huang He (Yellow River). - Mount Huashan, - The Tianshan Canyon, north of Kuqa (Xinjiang).

Fabrice