No, I Won’t Be Going Back to China (page 6 of 13)

Which other provinces still have very beautiful sites?

Hi Anna,

For my very first trip to China, I explored the Chinese part of the Silk Road in September 2018, covering the provinces of Xinjiang (officially an autonomous region), Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi.

My top cultural sites: - The excavated temples of Mogao in Dunhuang (northern Gansu). - Majishan, south of Tianshui (Gansu). - Qutan Si Monastery (southeast of Xining, Qinghai). - The excavated temples of Binglingsi (southern Gansu). - The Gansu Provincial Museum in Lanzhou (Gansu). - Ta'er Si Monastery (near Xining, Qinghai), despite heavy Han crowds. - The Qing village of Dangjiacun. - The Confucian temple in Hancheng.

My top natural sites: - The Karakoram Highway, between Tashkorgan and Kashgar, - The Danxia landforms northwest of Zhangye, packed with people but well-organized. - The natural setting of Binglingsi (Gansu), with its cliffs along the Huang He (Yellow River). - Mount Huashan, - The Tianshan Canyon, north of Kuqa (Xinjiang).

Fabrice

Good evening Fabrice,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write down all this info—I’ll keep it in my China itinerary notebook. Every tip and piece of advice from fellow travelers is worth having.

I wish you many more amazing trips, though from your profile, it looks like you’ve already "seen a lot of the world," but there’s still so much out there.

Best regards,

Anna

Hi there, Too bad—I’d planned the same trip for September 2018. But since I was going solo (couldn’t find a travel buddy), I switched regions and headed to southern China (Yúnnán) instead. So now I’m planning for September 2020: the Silk Road, from Bishkek, Torugart, Kashgar, the Taklamakan Desert, and Ürümqi. What are the must-see sites? Thanks for your reply.

What are the must-see sites?

See my reply at https://voyageforum.com/v.f?post=9176622;a=9176622.

If you enjoy road trips, you could add a loop through Tajikistan, including the Pamir Highway, to your itinerary. It’s now possible to enter China from Tajikistan via the Kulma Pass, which leads near Tashkurgan, where you can then descend the Karakoram Highway to Kashgar.

Fabrice

The Chinese are, above all, businesspeople who, like everywhere else, try to maximize their profits. Is your baker a crook? The Chinese practice bargaining—it’s a game you need to master to pay a fair price. Some see it as craftiness, but I don’t. It’s just a game, sometimes annoying, but they don’t have the same concept of time as we do. For some reason, the French struggle more than others to understand this logic.

The Chinese are, above all, businesspeople who try, like everywhere else, to maximize their profit. Is your baker a crook? The Chinese practice haggling. It's a game you need to master to pay the right price. Some see it as cunning. I don’t—it’s just a game, sometimes annoying, but they don’t have the same concept of time as we do. I don’t know why, but the French have a much harder time understanding this logic than others.

Good evening, What you say is very true. In principle, a traveler sets out to meet other people with different customs and ways of life, to experience something new and broaden their knowledge. It’s true that some things abroad can shock us because they’re the opposite of our own habits, but you gain knowledge, and you’re not obliged to adopt them—just see and keep them in your travel memories. Best regards,

What do you even know about me to lecture me? I’ve spent a hundred stays in China before settling down—six months now in Shanghai. For work, but also by choice; I could only come for periods at a time. What you’re saying is probably true, but personally, like tourists, I never take the metro given how cheap taxis are. You probably know places better than I do where neither I nor "ordinary" tourists will ever set foot. That’s your life; I’ve got mine. I’m 55, I’ve been around the world a bit, and I don’t need your advice to understand the difference between Hong Kong, Taipei, Shanghai, or Beijing.

These discussions are a bit pointless, but I’m glad I’ve taught some of you that we colonized China and that it was this colonization that sparked Mao’s revolt, which kicked us out like the thieves and scoundrels we were.

For the rest, dear readers, go where you dream of going and form your own opinions. But try not to "do China" in two weeks. If you behave respectfully, nothing unpleasant will happen to you.

When I mentioned scamming, I was actually thinking more about their innate (or learned?) lack of respect they show in queues, not their business practices.

As for haggling, no problem—it’s a staple in developing countries, so why shouldn’t they do it?

What do you even know about me to lecture me like this? I’ve made over a hundred trips to China before settling down—six months now in Shanghai. For work, but also by choice; I could still come for short stays. What you’re saying is probably true, but personally, like most tourists, I never take the metro given how cheap taxis are. You probably know places better than I do where neither I nor "ordinary" tourists would ever set foot. That’s your life; I’ve got mine. I’m 55, I’ve been around the world, and I don’t need your advice to understand the difference between Hong Kong, Taipei, Shanghai, or Beijing. These discussions are a bit pointless, but I’m glad I’ve taught some of you that we colonized China and that it was this colonization that sparked Mao’s revolt, which kicked us out like the thieves and scoundrels we were. For the rest, dear readers, go where you dream of going and form your own opinions. But try not to "do China" in two weeks. If you behave respectfully, nothing unpleasant will happen to you.

Good evening,

What’s gotten into you? I agreed with you and was just trying to expand on my point to keep the discussion going. And now you’re angry. Believe me, I wasn’t trying to lecture you at all. If that’s how you felt, please accept my apologies. Best regards,

A thousand apologies, a misclick 😕 I thought I was replying to Yuean’s message below: (the late hour, no doubt) Best regards

Yuean’s reply to Arcanan Excuse me, but living in Shanghai for six months doesn’t mean you know China. It’s like living in NYC for six months and saying you know the US, or spending a little time in Paris and boasting that you know Europe (which, by the way, many Chinese people do)...

We’ll see what you say in six years. I spent three years in Shanghai and have been in Shenzhen for two. Shanghai isn’t China. The people there are much more refined, international, open-minded, and educated. Shanghai has its own history and culture, shaped by outside influences and a certain art of living. Other Chinese people are almost ashamed of it, while Shanghai locals are proud of it. You’ll see that when you leave Shanghai and speak Chinese to the general population—most Chinese people dislike Shanghai locals because they’re different, which touches on a certain complex... They’ll call them arrogant, pretentious, effeminate... when in reality, they’re just cleaner, more open-minded, and better educated.

I can tell you that outside Shanghai, you’re dealing with proud boors who spit everywhere, aren’t always honest, and are very nationalistic. I won’t even get into the mediocre service, which reflects the lack of respect given to anyone outside their inner circle.

Just last Friday, I asked the ticket counter to top up my metro pass. I’d barely handed my card to the clerk when a woman who couldn’t have been 40 pushed me aside without a second thought and slapped her card down, telling the employee, "Add 50." And there wasn’t even a line—just her and me. This is typical, everyday behavior: rude, pushy, "get out of my way, I’m here now, and I’m paying so I’m right." Yeah, well, I’m paying too, and the employee had already started helping me, so I think you can wait 40 seconds.

I see a lot of well-meaning folks painting a picture of a new generation calling out their elders for bad manners. Open your eyes—it’s nonsense. This happens because you’re a foreigner and it’s obvious you don’t live here. 90% of the time, people will walk all over you without a second thought, especially if they think they’re richer than you (a pretty relative criterion, but hey, it makes them so happy—no need to bruise their new-money pride).

Anyway, I’m rather amused reading so many comments from people who’ve only seen China through tourist eyes and yet defend the country wholeheartedly, even though they barely know it... and who don’t seem much more legitimate than the person who started this thread to judge the country, contrary to what they believe. Why start so aggressively when your experience is often just as relative as theirs?

Believe me, no Chinese person would bother defending your country the way you’re defending theirs. And when you’re treated well as a tourist, remember it’s just a commercial facade, a community reflex drilled into them by local propaganda. They’re constantly fed the idea that they must show their best face to foreigners because it serves the authorities’ strategy—they know you don’t catch flies with vinegar, and you don’t spit on a smiling face, even if everything it does is aimed at fleecing you and quietly gaining dominance over anything that moves.

So I’ll reiterate my agreement with the person who opened this topic. While Chinese people can be endearing and friendly, it’s undeniable that they’re also disrespectful, rude, and selfish—borderline egotistical. Not to mention their questionable hygiene standards.

As for the argument that "China is at the other end of the world, so it’s different"—sorry, but NO. Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and Australia are also far away, and that doesn’t stop them from being polite and respectful. The current behavior of Chinese people isn’t the result of cultural differences but of communism, which has wiped out culture, and a worship of money, which strips away respect for others. And let’s be honest—if they wanted to change, they could, but they seem pretty satisfied with themselves, so don’t hold your breath.

Excuse me, but living in Shanghai for 6 months doesn’t mean you know China. It’s like living in NYC for 6 months and saying you know the US, or spending a little time in Paris and boasting that you know Europe (which, by the way, many Chinese people do)...

We’ll see what you say in 6 years. I spent 3 years in Shanghai and have been in Shenzhen for 2 years. Shanghai isn’t China. The people there are much more refined, international, open-minded, and educated. Shanghai has its own history and culture, shaped by outside influences and a certain art of living. Other Chinese people are almost ashamed of it, while Shanghai residents are proud. You’ll see that when you leave Shanghai and speak Chinese to the locals, most Chinese people dislike Shanghai residents because they’re different—it touches on a certain complex. They’ll call them arrogant, pretentious, effeminate... when in reality, they’re just cleaner, more open-minded, and better educated.

I can tell you that outside Shanghai, you’re dealing with proud rustics who spit everywhere, aren’t always honest, and are very nationalistic. I won’t even get into the mediocre service, which reflects the lack of respect given to anyone outside their inner circle.

Just last Friday, I asked the ticket counter to top up my metro pass. I’d barely handed my card to the clerk when a woman who couldn’t have been 40 came out of nowhere, shoved me aside without a second thought, and slapped her card down, telling the employee, "Add 50." And there wasn’t even a line—just her and me. This is typical, everyday behavior: rude, "move over, it’s my turn," I’m paying so I’m right. Yeah, well, so am I, and the employee had already started helping me, so I think you can wait 40 seconds.

I see a lot of well-meaning people painting a picture of younger generations calling out their elders for bad manners. Open your eyes—it’s nonsense. This happens because you’re a foreigner and it’s obvious you don’t live here. 90% of the time, they’ll walk all over you without a second thought, no matter your age, especially if they think they’re richer than you (a pretty relative criterion, but hey, it makes them so happy, so let’s not bruise their new-money pride).

Anyway, I’m amused reading so many comments from people who’ve only seen China through tourist eyes, defending the country wholeheartedly when they barely know it... and who don’t seem much more legitimate than the person who started this thread to judge the country, contrary to what they believe. Why start so aggressively when your experience is often just as relative as theirs?

Believe me, no Chinese person would bother defending your country the way you’re defending theirs. And when you’re treated well as a tourist, remember it’s just a commercial facade, a community reflex from local propaganda. They drill it into their heads through various means that they must show foreigners their best face, because you don’t catch flies with vinegar, and you don’t spit on a smiling face—even if everything they do is aimed at swindling you and gaining dominance over anything that moves.

So I’ll reiterate my agreement with the person who opened this topic. While Chinese people can be endearing and friendly, it’s undeniable that they’re also disrespectful, rude, and selfish—bordering on egotistical. Not to mention their questionable hygiene standards.

As for the argument that "China is on the other side of the world, so it’s different"—sorry, but NO. Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and Australia are also far away, and that doesn’t stop them from being polite and respectful. The current behavior of Chinese people isn’t the result of cultural differences but of communism, which eradicated culture, and a worship of money, which strips away respect for others. And let’s be honest—if they wanted to change, they could, but they seem very satisfied with themselves, so don’t hold your breath.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx But what do you know about me to lecture me? I’ve made over a hundred trips to China before settling down, for the past 6 months in Shanghai with my Chinese wife and our two kids. What you’re saying is probably true, but personally, like tourists, I never take the metro given the price of taxis. You probably know places better than I do where neither I nor "ordinary" tourists will ever set foot. That’s your life—I have mine. I’m 55, I’ve been around the world, and I don’t need your advice to understand the difference between Hong Kong, Taipei, Shanghai, or Beijing. These discussions are a bit pointless, but I’m glad I’ve taught some of you that we colonized China and that Mao’s revolt, which kicked us out like thieves, was born from that colonization. For the rest, dear readers, go where you dream of going and form your own opinion. But try not to "do China" in two weeks. If you behave respectfully, nothing unpleasant will happen to you.

We introduced opium there to better enslave them. But the Chinese don’t hold it against us.

Two sentences, two mistakes and oversimplifications. It wasn’t to enslave China that the British forcibly introduced opium produced in their Indian colony, but to restore a trade balance that had become catastrophically unbalanced: China exported a lot of goods (especially porcelain, silk, and tea) and imported almost nothing, thus accumulating a growing portion of Europe’s silver reserves, while the silver mines in Mexico and Peru were running dry.

Chinese government propaganda never misses an opportunity to harp on about the resentment over humiliations suffered in the 19th century. Western visitors usually don’t notice this, as this internal propaganda is never translated. Besides, it doesn’t seem to resonate with the Chinese either—across all social classes, they have an idealized vision of France, made of romance and luxury (how many times have I heard the cliché 法国人很浪漫 = the French are very romantic!).

Moreover, the summary of Alain Peyrefitte’s excellent book is strangely off compared to the text. While this encounter was indeed a missed opportunity (the word the author uses), it’s because the British were seeking purely commercial relations, whereas the Chinese saw this mission as the recognition of the vassalage of those distant foreigners. The Macartney mission was doomed to fail due to this mutual misunderstanding.

A thousand apologies if my summary, which only aimed to encourage people to read Peyrefitte’s book, was a bit off. I did, however, mention a clash of cultures. But culture, as you seem to know better than anyone, is like jam...

Normally, there’s never a culture clash—after all, we’re visiting others to discover them. Cultures just add up, plain and simple. Far from being colonialist, I blend right in. The only Western passenger happily takes public transport; it might take time, but I’ve got plenty and don’t keep track. The Chinese aren’t worse than many others, and I really like their reserve. Speak if you want, when you want. Normal, right?

Glad to see everyone standing their ground.

And if you want to consider yourselves as some kind of filthy descendants of awful thieves, good for you. The Chinese don’t ask for that—they actually need people like you to fuel their propaganda, portraying them as eternal, defenseless victims on the international stage. And you cost them less than a poster or a speech at the UN.

Go ask the Koreans or the Vietnamese what they think of the "kind" Chinese who enslaved them for centuries.

Ask the country’s minorities if they feel free and if they don’t feel like they’re living in human zoos.

Ask the Filipinos or the Vietnamese what they think of Chinese ships coming into their territory and declaring it’s their own...

Ask the countries in Southeast Asia or European business owners if they’re happy about the Chinese tidal waves (check out that really interesting Al Jazeera report on the behavior of Chinese tourists in Paris...).

Ask North Africans or other Africans if they’re satisfied with the Chinese presence in their countries—same goes for Australia or Western Canada.

In the meantime, I wish you lots of happiness in your new Chinese life. It’s true that defending a country where it’s normal to be disrespectful to others and where having no self-awareness is the norm is quite the evolution... Especially when, after spending so much time in the country, you don’t even have the excuse of being a wide-eyed foreigner seeing everything as fresh and beautiful.

Maybe spitting, screaming, brute force, and being forbidden to think for yourself suit you just fine. To each their own. I still say we’ll revisit this in 5 or 6 years.

And I still think it’s unfair to attack the person who started this thread, whose only mistake was reflecting on the incivility and passive aggression they witnessed here.

What if we asked Vietnamese people what they think of their latest invader? Coca-Cola, McDonald’s?

Glad to see everyone digging in their heels.

If you want to consider yourselves filthy descendants of awful thieves, that’s your prerogative. The Chinese don’t ask for that—they just need people like you to fuel their propaganda, painting them as eternal, defenseless victims on the international stage. And you’re cheaper than a billboard or a UN speech.

Go ask the Koreans or the Vietnamese what they think of the "kind" Chinese who enslaved them for centuries.

Ask the country’s minorities if they feel free and if they don’t feel like they’re living in human zoos.

Ask the Filipinos or the Vietnamese what they think of Chinese ships showing up in their territory and declaring it’s all theirs...

Ask the countries of Southeast Asia or European business owners if they’re happy about the Chinese tidal waves (see the really interesting Al Jazeera report on Chinese tourists’ behavior in Paris...).

Ask North Africans or other Africans if they’re satisfied with the Chinese presence in their countries—same goes for Australia or Western Canada.

In the meantime, I wish you lots of happiness in your new Chinese life. It’s true that defending a country where it’s normal to be disrespectful to others and where self-reflection is nonexistent is quite the evolution... Especially when, after spending so much time in the country, you can’t even use the excuse of being a wide-eyed foreigner seeing everything as fresh and beautiful.

Maybe spitting, screaming, brute force, and being forbidden to think for yourself suit you just fine. To each their own. I stand by what I said—we’ll revisit this in 5 or 6 years.

And I still think it’s unfair to attack the person who started this thread, whose only mistake was reflecting on the incivility and passive aggression they witnessed here.

Good evening,

Just a little aside. I saw a report on French TV about Chinese tourists in Paris, and it also showed some very happy shop owners—especially (those from luxury brands)—who explained that the Chinese spend huge sums in Paris at all the designer stores, and they do it in record time. For everything flooding the market, it’s still *countries* that let Chinese goods in (bought at very low costs) to sell them cheaper in the West. It’s still some of *our* companies that offshored production to manufacture at lower costs and resell here at big profits. Basically, it’s like war—there are those who profit from it and those who suffer because of it. (That quote isn’t mine.) Best regards,

PS: You’ll notice how surprising it is that in the 1960s, the Chinese Revolution was presented to the Chinese people primarily as a struggle against the rich, the educated, and landowners. Whereas today, it’s become a revolution against the foreign invader (who, between us, didn’t go very far, didn’t stay very long, and was mostly Japanese before becoming Western).

Some will see this shift in official discourse as a wonderful example of the "pragmatism" that China’s cheerleaders in France so often praise. Others will see it as pure manipulation and dangerous revisionism, conditioning 1 in 7 people on the planet to believe it’s their right to take revenge on anything foreign. And that newfound financial success and aggression justify everything.

Given the behavior of the government and the people both at home and abroad, I lean more toward the second analysis.

Well, surprisingly, they only had good things to say about it!

O.K

Actually, the only question that matters has already been asked, and you haven’t answered it: what are you doing in a country you hate, surrounded by people you hate? Leave quickly—the world is vast. Or maybe you’re just a total masochist 😎😎

PS: LONG LIVE TRIPS TO CHINA 🙂

I’ve just returned from a 12-day organized trip to Beijing, Xi’an, and Shanghai, which I enjoyed and went really smoothly.

The advantage of having a guide is that it solves communication issues, since almost no one speaks a language other than Mandarin in these big cities. Knowing how to say hello and thank you in Chinese opens doors for exchanges through gestures and a mix of words :)

I’d been told such things about the Chinese that I was a bit worried, but the reality is more "rosy": sure, they spit very loudly, but not too many people do it, and you get used to the jostling since it’s a tradition. Groups have a specific entrance at sites, so no cutting in line. At the end of my stay, I took a two-day solo extension and went by metro to People’s Square on National Day—an experience worth having! (It’s handy being tall in a compact crowd.)

The food is infinitely better than what we get in Chinese restaurants in the West—quite a pleasant surprise.

One day I’ll visit Hong Kong, and I might take the opportunity to return to Shanghai.