No, I Won’t Be Going Back to China (page 7 of 13)

Perfect timing, only 3 weeks left!

I completely agree with you: traveling in China is great!

As a tourist everywhere or as an expat in Shanghai, it's great. Elsewhere, it's much less so. That's my opinion, which by the way aligns overall with the person who started this discussion. Sorry that so many of us don’t see eye to eye with you on everything...

Perfect timing, only 3 weeks left!

I completely agree with you: traveling in China is great!

As a tourist everywhere or as an expat in Shanghai, it's great. Elsewhere, it's much less so. That's my opinion, which by the way aligns overall with the person who started this discussion. Sorry that so many of us don't see eye to eye with you on everything...

Hello,

You're right, everyone has their own feelings. We don't all see the same things, and that's okay. However, when I follow these never-ending discussions where it's hard to keep track of who said what by the end, I wonder: out of all these people responding, have they all actually been to the country they're talking about? Can we answer that question? Best regards.

Excess is meaningless (Lao Tzu, probably). You hate China and the Chinese—don’t let that put others off.

Glad to see everyone digging in their heels. And if you want to see yourself as a filthy descendant of awful thieves, good for you. The Chinese don’t ask for that—they just need people like you to fuel their propaganda, painting them as eternal, defenseless victims on the international stage. And you’re cheaper than a billboard or a speech at the UN.

Go ask Koreans or Vietnamese what they think of the "kind" Chinese who enslaved them for centuries.

Ask the country’s minorities if they feel free and if they don’t feel like they’re living in human zoos.

Ask Filipinos or Vietnamese what they think of Chinese ships showing up in their waters and declaring it’s their territory...

Ask Southeast Asian countries or European business owners if they’re happy about the Chinese tidal wave (see the fascinating Al Jazeera report on Chinese tourists’ behavior in Paris...).

Ask North Africans or other Africans if they’re satisfied with China’s presence in their countries—same goes for Australia or Western Canada.

In the meantime, I wish you lots of happiness in your new Chinese life. It’s true that defending a country where it’s normal to be disrespectful to others and where self-reflection is nonexistent is quite the step forward... Especially when, after spending so much time there, you can’t even use the excuse of being a wide-eyed foreigner seeing everything as fresh and wonderful.

Maybe spitting, screaming, bullying, and being forbidden to think for yourself suit you just fine. To each their own. I still think we’ll revisit this in 5 or 6 years.

And I still think it’s unfair to attack the person who started this thread—their only mistake was reflecting on the incivility and passive aggression they witnessed here.

Absolutely. I’m not entirely sure why I’m even replying. I know quite a few French people who ended up in Shanghai for work for a few days, convinced it was a polluted, overcrowded city full of beggars everywhere. They were so shocked by what they saw that they... refused to see it and went back to France with the same ideas, telling me what’s already been said here: "Shanghai isn’t China." Well... LOL

Glad to see everyone digging in their heels. And if you want to consider yourselves filthy descendants of awful thieves, good for you. The Chinese don’t ask for that—they just need people like you to fuel their propaganda, portraying them as eternal, defenseless victims on the international stage. And you’re cheaper than a poster or a speech at the UN.

Go ask Koreans or Vietnamese what they think of the kind Chinese who enslaved them for centuries.

Ask the country’s minorities if they feel free and if they don’t feel like they’re living in human zoos.

Ask Filipinos or Vietnamese what they think of Chinese ships coming into their territory and declaring it’s theirs...

Ask Southeast Asian countries or European business owners if they’re happy about the Chinese tidal waves (see a very interesting Al Jazeera report on the behavior of Chinese tourists in Paris...).

Ask North Africans or Africans elsewhere if they’re satisfied with the Chinese presence in their countries—same in Australia or Western Canada.

In the meantime, I wish you lots of happiness in your new Chinese life. It’s true that defending a country where it’s normal to be disrespectful to others and where self-reflection is nonexistent is quite the evolution... Especially when, after spending so much time in the country, you don’t even have the excuse of being a wide-eyed foreigner seeing everything as fresh and beautiful.

After that, maybe spitting, screaming, bullying, and being forbidden to think for yourself suits you. To each their own. I stand by what I said—we’ll talk about it again in 5 or 6 years.

And I still think it’s unfair to attack the person who started this thread, whose only mistake was reflecting on the incivility and passive aggression they witnessed here.

Good evening,

Just a little aside. I’d seen a French TV report showing Chinese tourists in Paris, where shopkeepers—especially those from luxury brands—were thrilled, explaining that the Chinese spend huge sums in Paris in all the high-end stores in record time. For everything flooding the market, it’s still *countries* that let Chinese goods in (bought at very low costs) to sell them cheaper in the West. It’s still some of our companies that *offshored* production to manufacture at lower costs and resell here at big profits. Basically, it’s like war—some profit from it, others suffer because of it. (That quote isn’t mine.) Best regards

You should write a book "Bouvard and Pécuchet in China"

PS: It’s striking how, in the 1960s, the Chinese revolution was presented to the Chinese primarily as a struggle against the rich, the educated, and landowners. Yet today, it’s become a revolution against the foreign invader (who, between us, didn’t go very far, didn’t stay long, and was mostly Japanese before becoming Western). Some will see this shift in official discourse as a wonderful example of the "pragmatism" that Sino-enthusiasts in France so often praise. Others will see it as pure manipulation and dangerous revisionism, conditioning 1 in 7 people on the planet to believe it’s their right to take revenge on anything foreign. And that newfound financial success and aggression justify everything.

Given the behavior of the government and the people both at home and abroad, I lean more toward the second analysis.

Mirror, mirror... aren't I the fairest of them all?

Perfect timing, only 3 weeks left! I completely agree with you: traveling in China is great!

Everywhere as a tourist or as an expat in Shanghai, it's great. Elsewhere, it's much less so. That's my opinion, which by the way aligns overall with the person who started this discussion. Sorry that so many of us don’t see eye to eye with you on everything...

I just got back from China and noticed the same things as you. I’d even add that for Chinese people, respecting traffic laws and copyright is more of a vague suggestion.

Now, while I sometimes felt the crowds were too dense and the subway too packed, you have to realize there are 25 million people in Beijing and 35 million in Shanghai. That’s Canada’s entire population in one city.

The concept of lining up doesn’t seem to exist. So, when in Rome, do as the Romans do! I realized I’m pretty good at cutting in line.

You’re searched everywhere—that’s not Chinese culture, it’s the Communist Party’s control. Not really to control everything, but to make people realize they *could* know everything if they wanted to. Because I seriously doubt a terrorist would target the Beijing subway, given how little China is involved in international conflicts.

The language… yeah, it can be frustrating at times. Some people don’t speak English and don’t even try. Fortunately, that’s not everyone. And thankfully, things are changing. I was chatting with the woman next to me on the train, and she told me her 3-year-old daughter is already taking private English lessons.

So yes, I had a wonderful trip. But after 10 days, I was really happy when my plane touched down at Dorval.

Because I seriously doubt a terrorist would target the Beijing subway, since the Chinese are barely involved in international conflicts.

Hi,

Terrorism in China is exclusively domestic (from Uyghurs in Xinjiang), but the number and scale of incidents are very limited compared to what several European countries experienced in past decades—despite security and repressive measures that are far stricter than those implemented in those same European countries.

There have been security gates at every subway entrance for a long time. In Beijing, they were already there in 2010. Ten days to explore a country is short, and the East isn’t the West. The countryside exists, and while the Chinese may be discreet, they’re still curious.

Security gates have been at every metro entrance for a long time. In Beijing, they were already there in 2010. Ten days to discover a country is short, and the East isn’t the West. The countryside exists, and while the Chinese may be discreet, they’re still curious.

I don’t think the scale is as limited as that. These are very determined Muslim extremists. Western media only reports massacres with swords involving more than 10 people. But Chinese authorities are right to be extremely vigilant, especially in the metro, especially if you’re carrying a backpack. If an “innocent” tourist is checked, it’s also a way to show them the situation is under control.

Security gates have been at every metro entrance for a long time. In Beijing, they were already there in 2010. Ten days to discover a country is short, and the East isn’t the West. The countryside exists, and while the Chinese may be discreet, they’re still curious.

Totally agree. It’s annoying to hear tourists give their opinion on “China” when they’ve only seen a small part of it—usually some tourist-infested area. I’ve been living in Shanghai for 6 months and have never been checked. In fact, I’ve made over 50 trips to Shanghai and Beijing before, and no one ever checked me outside the airport. But I’m clean-shaven and don’t wear a backpack or South American guerrilla-style shoes.

I don’t think the scale is as limited as that. These are very determined Muslim extremists. Western media only reports massacres with swords involving more than 10 people. But the Chinese authorities are right to be extremely vigilant, especially in the subway, especially if you’re carrying a backpack.

Hello,

Whether you’re carrying a laptop bag (on weekdays) or a small backpack (on weekends), it’s systematically screened when entering the Beijing subway. In some other cities, it used to depend on size: a checked suitcase would be inspected, but not a small bag.

If an “innocent” tourist is checked, it’s also a way to show them that the situation is under control.

If that’s the goal, it’s completely missed. On one hand, the imperfect checks used to make me smile in cities far from any particular concerns. On the other, the disconnect between the official discourse of social harmony and the scale of security measures—compared to what’s practiced in the West—suggested an explosive situation that’s no longer socially controlled and is only contained by this police and military apparatus. The truth is obviously somewhere between these two extremes; the contrast is glaring in Tibet and Xinjiang, where there are real issues.

Besides, I’ve stayed in Shanghai and Beijing over 50 times before, and no one ever checked me outside the airport.

And outside the entrances of major museums, and outside train stations (though more casually),

I spent a month in Yunnan and Tibet and never had any kind of check! Since I'm over 75, all the sites were free, even for foreigners! In two years, I'm going for 15 days in Xinjiang, and I'm sure I'll still have fewer problems than if I wander off the beaten path in the south of France! !

I spent a month in Yunnan and Tibet and never had any kind of check!

Hi,

What year was this?

Security gates have been at every subway entrance for a long time. In Beijing, they were already there in 2010. 10 days to discover a country is short, and the East isn't the West. The countryside exists, and even if the Chinese are discreet, they're still curious.

Totally agree. It’s annoying to hear tourists giving their opinion on “China” when they’ve only seen a small part of it, usually overrun with tourists. I’ve been living in Shanghai for 6 months and I’ve never been checked. In fact, I’ve made over 50 trips to Shanghai and Beijing before, and no one checked me outside the airport. But I’m clean-shaven and don’t wear a backpack or South American guerrilla-style shoes

Good evening, You’re right. We went to China “solo” for a month, visited 6 “provinces,” took a flight each time, and only went through airport security. Never, in cities or tourist spots, did the police ask us for anything. Though, that was in Sept. 2013. Maybe things have changed since then.

September 2018

Hey, you know what? Southern French folks are absoooolutely lovely!

In two years, it’ll be 15 days in Xinjiang, and I’m sure I’ll still have fewer problems than if I wander off the beaten path in southern France! :)

After my experience in Xinjiang in September 2018, I wouldn’t be so sure. Unless you’re talking about some of the notoriously rough cities in southern France.

Security checks in Xinjiang are frequent and often extremely thorough.

For example, during my first train trip (Kashgar -> Kuqa), my backpack was searched completely, including the contents of an aspirin tube and a vitamin C tube. Once everything was unpacked and inspected, I was urgently told to clear out quickly, and my toiletry bag paid the price (probably mistakenly handed to the passenger next to me by the inspector).

In general, security checks at Xinjiang’s train stations are extensive and very time-consuming. Much more so than at the other train stations I’ve used in Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi. In fact, when returning to Xinjiang, it was the only time I had my ID checked on the train, between Liuyuan and Hami—including a photo of my passport, visa, and my face in the background: *"welcome to Xinjiang"* 😐.

Additionally, there are areas in Xinjiang where tourists are unofficially banned from entering.

In Yèchéng/Kargilik, for instance, I was stopped before even leaving the train station. To exit the station, there’s an ID check, just like in Ürümqi (but surprisingly not in Kuqa). Spotted in the queue, I was taken aside by two security officers and escorted by four soldiers. The handling was polite but firm.

After a long wait—probably while they checked with higher-ups—the verdict came: no way was I visiting anything. The security officers escorted me to the bus station, where they found me a shared taxi to Shāchē/Yarkand.

In Yarkand, I didn’t even get close to the city. At the first road checkpoint east of the city, I was pulled out of the shared taxi, taken aside by three plainclothes officers, and driven to the western checkpoint. After a very long wait, I was finally put in a private vehicle (since there was no more public transport) headed to Kashgar. I arrived at 3:30 AM Beijing Time after multiple road checks.

But my troubles weren’t over. The neighborhood where my hostel was located (east of the lake) was cordoned off by police, and I had to walk around three sides—2.5 km instead of 200 m. On foot, since it wasn’t in the direction my escort was going.

In all my travels (see my profile), I’ve never experienced anything like this. Even the state of siege in Srinagar (Indian Kashmir) was mild in comparison.

The Chinese state is highly professional in its security control over Xinjiang, using state-of-the-art technology. This includes 24/7 automatic photo identification of everything passing through major urban and intercity roads, applying to both Han and Uyghur people without discrimination.

In Xinjiang, while train station access checks are tedious, they’re still far less time-consuming than the numerous road checks. Stick to trains if you can!

Access to markets and bazaars is also often subject to security checks (X-ray for bags, metal detectors, pat-downs, and body scans). Even the very modest open-air market in the Uyghur town of Kuqa was surrounded by barbed wire.

Surveillance cameras are everywhere, including in rural areas—like near a desecrated Muslim cemetery. I only realized this after a police car came to check on me and delete the photos I’d taken with my smartphone. Before that, I’d only seen decorative ruins with the photogenic Flaming Mountains in the background. The forced deletion made me question why what I’d seen was "sensitive."

In busy areas, like Kashgar’s historic old town, the police presence is overwhelming—almost 2-3 officers patrolling every 30 meters. And that’s just the uniformed ones...

These security measures are approved and appreciated by all the English-speaking Han people I’ve discussed this with—both locals and tourists from coastal China (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen...).

Fabrice Non-Chinese speaker, though I’ve learned to count and use survival vocabulary (train station, train, bus, hotel, youth hostel, museum...).

P.S.: In Xinjiang, as well as in Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi, I had excellent interactions with the Chinese people I met, whether they spoke English or not. Just avoid tour groups.

Your account is eye-opening 😮. I went to Xinjiang in 2013, and none of this was happening. I spent about ten days there without ever being ID-checked on the street or at Urumqi station when I arrived. Even when crossing the border by train from Kazakhstan, my luggage wasn’t searched.

Why such a crackdown? The fallout from the war in Syria, where some Uyghurs went to fight for ISIS? The various attacks in recent years?

There isn’t nearly as much control in Tibetan regions outside Tibet. In fact, there’s hardly any at all.