Thailand Travel Journal: From Chiang Mai to Bangkok, We Didn’t Buddha Our Fun (page 8 of 11)

Your story is (almost) an invitation to go see for ourselves... 🏴‍☠️ To pick up just one part of your story: "Françoise was amazed. It’s true that until you see it, you don’t believe it. It’s not like all those grimy spots around the world where it’s dark, seedy, and the faces are unsettling. At Nana Plaza, it’s all energy, friendliness, light, music, and color."

But with what eyes did you and Françoise see this? You can’t just ignore the darker side of what you’re describing so lightly! Do you have even the slightest idea what prostitution and sexual slavery are? Because that’s exactly what these three districts—So Cowboy, Nana Plaza, and Patpong—are about.

To other readers: Am I really the only bitter old person, as you put it, reacting to the few who’ve read your post?

No, Fabienne, your reaction doesn’t make you a bitter old person... it’s a sensitive topic, and you’re speaking about it with your own sensitivity. But if you’d be so kind as to reread those lines while giving Françoise and Joël the credit of having no tolerance for human exploitation, you might see something different. I didn’t see any flippancy—just a kind perspective, a testimony without dogma. As Joël says, we can’t ignore what we don’t like about Thailand; it exists too. As for "going to see for yourself," maybe it can help make some sense of things... Best regards, Christine

Hello Christine,

It’s the kindness and lack of dogmatism that really got me thinking. I understand that Jojo wanted to describe what he saw without judgment. However, when you tackle such a topic, you inevitably get involved, and not speaking out—or barely—about the conditions of the women (and sometimes children) who work in these places can be questionable. That’s how I felt.

Since I’m neither religious, an opportunist, nor a young man blessed with an extraordinary sensuality, the only remaining option in the range of different perspectives offered was to be a bitter young or old person. Since I’m no longer 20, I went with the latter ;).

Best regards, Fabienne

Hello,

I understand that Jojo wanted to describe what he saw without judgment. However, when tackling such a topic, one inevitably gets involved, and not speaking out—or barely—about the conditions of the women, sometimes children, who work in these places can be questionable. That’s how I felt.

A rather odd feeling, all things considered... because according to you, Jojoone didn’t denounce the conditions of the women, sometimes children, who work in these places enough, which can be questionable.

What’s odd is your reasoning... if he describes, he must denounce, otherwise he’s condoning it... open-minded friend, move along.

Jojoone described what he felt, full stop. Why not accept things as they are, rather than how you’d wish them to be?

You have your own ideas about these places—I don’t write *felt* because I doubt you’ve taken the time to get to know these places and the people who work there. If you had, you wouldn’t have written what you did.

Have a lovely day.

Wow, where have you set foot? You’re about to trigger an angry mob…

Didn’t you know that in this travel journal, Jojo1er isn’t looking for readers but admirers? Doesn’t expect feedback, only praise? Didn’t you know it’s not wise to disrupt the master’s work when we’re incapable of writing a journal ourselves? What can we say, we’re not on his level, and we don’t deserve such great travelers among us. Given that most readers don’t automatically write a response, you can tell he sits high in this virtual microcosm. Oh no, according to his keen analysis, those who dare to express an opinion that doesn’t stroke his ego the right way are just bitter and jealous of his annual leave. Bitter and psychologically rigid too. Oh yes, you’ll see—we’re in for it. 😉

Let Jojo not get too carried away—if you hadn’t come to post your thoughts, I wouldn’t have been curious enough to read the end of his extraordinary adventures.

In a story that claims to be *the* journey around temples and Buddhas of all shapes and colors but ends up feeling like a cow watching trains pass without distinguishing one from another, ending at Nana Plaza… there’s something I just don’t get. Goodness, he just missed out on the award for best travel journal and greatest traveler of the year!

You’re not the only one who raised an eyebrow at his grand finale. We might not be the same age, but we understood the same thing. That a man is fascinated by so much light is completely normal, and well, it’s cultural, isn’t it? That a woman is *épatée* (amazed, in a way that’s more or less admiring) to see other women doing a job she wouldn’t accept—or, I hope, wouldn’t want her sister/daughter/niece/friends to do just to survive and support their families—is even more baffling to me. Unless it’s some kind of voyeurism I just don’t get. A job no woman, unless for pathological reasons, chooses out of pure pleasure or vocation. Do you think these young, flirtatious, smiling girls brag to their village when they return about shaking their hips or playing pool for a living? *Éberluer* (stupefy) or *sidérer* (astound) would’ve had a different meaning here. Conviviality, light, music, color, infectious laughter—their sensitivity isn’t mine. "Denouncing" with such words… I need to reread the dictionary.

I didn’t need to "go see" for myself—I’ve talked to plenty of them. And because they had nothing to sell me, not even a drink, I didn’t hear the same story as those men who claim there’s no sexual slavery in Thailand… Temples are beautiful and all, but only if you’re not overdosing on them. Taking an interest in the "little people" who make up the essence of a country is even more enriching.

Women have fought so that today we have the right to choose whether to have children, a job we love and thrive in, no longer depend financially on a husband, access political roles, and discover the world. Isn’t it desirable that globalization also gives these women on the other side of the world—who will raise their children and the next generation—the same rights? But as long as there are people encouraging others to "go see" on the other side of the planet that women remain objects to rent because it’s *sanuk* and "tolerated," and as long as others applaud it, we’re in trouble.

Hello,

I’m touching on what stirs the senses—and it’s unsettling.... You’re right... I’ll move on! But it’s not because you’re inviting me to, nor is it due to a lack of openness—I must have just as much as you do. Just because Joel describes what he felt doesn’t take away my right to react to that same description.... I have the right, like anyone else, to speak up on this forum and regret that the story doesn’t mention the people and their conditions.

Phew, I was feeling pretty alone facing those gentlemen .

You laid out exactly what made me react to the "grand finale"—thanks! The rest of the journal was missing the male perspective; I read it but didn’t feel any urge to check it out!

Have a great day.

I really liked the photos of the temples—beautiful light, great sharpness, really good framing, and always that little original detail. Though they do feel a bit lifeless overall, except for the ones with kids, especially the birthday video.

I can see the light touch to help digest all those temples, but I’d have loved more photos 😉 Still, the same documentary-style shots from Nana—neon lights, girls, lively street restaurants, etc. As for the condemnation, this isn’t the place for it in this travel journal. It’s a complex topic specific to Thailand and Asia that’s been discussed elsewhere.

for condemnation not the place here in this travel journal a complex topic specific to Thailand and Asia that was discussed elsewhere

Absolutely, I won’t go into more detail. Just my two cents as a regular reader, nothing more.

Wow, where have you set foot? You're about to trigger the fury of an angry mob!

Didn’t you know that in this travel journal, Jojo1er isn’t looking for readers but admirers; he doesn’t expect comments, only praise? Didn’t you know it’s not wise to disrupt the master’s work when we’re incapable of writing a journal ourselves? What can I say, we’re not on his level, and we don’t deserve such great travelers among us. Given that most readers don’t automatically write feedback, you can tell he sits high in this virtual microcosm. Oh no, according to his sharp analysis, those who dare express an opinion that doesn’t stroke his ego the right way are bitter and jealous of his annual leave. Bitter and psychologically rigid too. Oh yes, you’ll see—we’re in for it.😉 ...........In a story that claims to be *the* journey around temples and Buddhas of all shapes and colors, but ultimately looks like a cow watching trains go by without telling them apart, ending at Nana Plaza—there’s something I just don’t get... Darn, he just missed out on the award for best travel journal and greatest traveler of the year!

A direct attack on Jojoone, who hasn’t responded to the posts after his last message. Clearly, you’ve got something against him and you’re using Asia7’s message to settle scores.

I expected better from you.

I didn’t need to “go see”—I talked to quite a few of them, and because they had nothing to sell me, not even a drink, I didn’t hear the same story as those gentlemen who claim there’s no sexual slavery in Thailand…

Oh, that’s new… no need to go see, but you managed to talk to a lot of them… I’m curious—how did you meet so many girls to discuss their jobs?

those gentlemen who claim there’s no sexual slavery in Thailand

That’s a convenient shortcut, but it’s imprecise.

Let’s be more precise.

It’s likely there *is* sexual slavery in Thailand. It exists in many countries and isn’t unique to Thailand.

However, talking about sexual slavery in Nana or Cowboy shows the person hasn’t taken the time to understand these places or the people who work there.

Quick reminder: Definition of slavery according to the dictionary: The state or condition of those under tyrannical domination; subjugation, servitude: To hold a people in slavery. Close dependence of someone on something or someone; an activity that imposes subjection or constraint: The slavery of drugs.

The people who work in Nana or Cowboy have chosen to do so. It’s their personal choice, and they can stop whenever they want—no one will say anything. New people arrive, and others leave every day.

Now, let’s talk about the economic side. In Thailand, the unemployment rate is extremely low. It’s not hard for a Thai person to find a job.

The thing is, bar girls usually don’t have the education level to access fulfilling jobs with salaries that allow them to live comfortably. They have access to unskilled jobs—working in a factory for very low pay, for example. Some choose to work in Nana or Cowboy, with the dream—realistic or not—of meeting a foreigner who’ll offer them a comfortable life. But it’s a choice, and it has nothing to do with slavery.

Women fought so that today we have the right to choose whether to have children or not, a job we love and thrive in, no longer depend financially on a husband, the chance to hold political positions, and discover the world. Isn’t it desirable that globalization also gives these women at the end of the world—who will raise their children and the next generation—the same rights? But as long as there are people encouraging others to “go see” on the other side of the planet that women remain objects to rent because it’s “sanuk” and “tolerated,” and as long as others applaud, we’re in trouble.

A feminist paragraph—not wrong, women had to fight for access to certain things. But lumping that together with prostitution in Thailand isn’t helpful; it distorts reality.

But as long as there are people encouraging others to “go see” on the other side of the planet that women remain objects to rent

So it’s the fault of people who encourage others to “go see”… But actually, if there weren’t women working in prostitution, there wouldn’t be clients. If there weren’t clients, there wouldn’t be prostitutes. It’s the chicken-and-egg question… which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I think it’s wrong to say that women working in Nana or Cowboy are objects to rent. They choose who they go with and aren’t forced to go with a client. So no, they’re not objects to rent. They’re women who do what they want with their bodies and with whom they want. We’re far from slavery…

One last thing I’d like to suggest you consider.

If you know Thailand a little, you’ve probably noticed that this people doesn’t have the same education as Western Europeans, not the same way of seeing things, not the same life principles. Given that, maybe they don’t share your views on prostitution…

Nothing is ever all black or all white… everything is just shades of gray.

Have a great Saturday.

Hello,

Just because Joel described how he felt doesn’t take away my right to react to that same description... I have the right, like anyone else, to express myself on this forum and to regret that the story didn’t mention the people and their conditions.

JoJoone has his own sensitivity—he described this place with his own perspective.

Saying that not denouncing something is somehow condoning it is just disheartening and insulting to the author of this post.

If you think it *should* be denounced, why not start your own thread about it?

Telling someone that if they don’t denounce something, they’re condoning it (those are your words) is a misguided oversimplification in this case.

Have a great Saturday!

Hello,

On a lighter note while still respecting the honorable beliefs and positions of everyone here, a fellow countryman wrote not too long ago: "If the mystic still doesn’t know the secret of this World, I wonder where the bartender could’ve learned it."

That said, let’s quote Khun Kiattisak "Kittie" Prapadarachawissanunpol from the Asian Economic Studies for Proper Involvement (AESPI) during his memorable speech on the 5th day of the Steinbach Meet-up: "[...] one day—don’t be surprised—the Englishwomen from Manchester will sell their bodies to young Burmese men."

++

PS post edit: correction from the official translator: "[...] one day—don’t be surprised—the Englishmen from Manchester will sell their bodies to young Burmese women." Have a great weekend! !

A big thank you to all the recent contributors who’ve kept this travel journal alive and made it accessible to even more future travelers. There’s always some little tip that can come in handy.

Special thanks to Michant, Nolack, SuisseChris, Renosu, and Nato. In your comments, I’ve seen courage, moderation, discernment, and intelligence. I’m certainly not the best judge, but your contributions do this forum proud.

I’ve grown used to the yearly intrusion of a troll or hypersensitive folks who seem so bothered by the aesthetics of the images that they can’t stand it. What I didn’t understand, though, were several warnings via private messages from members who post less, have stopped posting, or even changed their usernames. Turns out, you’re welcomed warmly by big contributors—until they feel you’re overshadowing them a bit. Those for whom this is their main occupation then feel like they’re losing their tool for influence and popularity. That’s never been my goal, though. Before I go prepare for the next trip, I’d like to invite anyone who’s discovered places here to drop by later and say hi on the story—maybe even add some extra info.

To those who enjoyed Françoise’s photos, I’ll see you this winter for a new travel journal.

Thank you to all the recent contributors for keeping this travel journal alive and thus making it accessible to a wider audience of future travelers. There’s always some tip or other that can be useful. A special thanks to Michant, Nolack, SuisseChris, Renosu, and Nato. In your comments, I’ve seen courage, moderation, discernment, and intelligence. While I’m certainly not the best judge, your contributions are the kind that do a forum proud. I’ve grown used to the yearly intrusion of a troll or hypersensitive individuals seemingly disturbed by the aesthetics of the images to the point that it becomes unbearable for them. However, I hadn’t understood several warnings via private messages from members who contribute less, no longer contribute, or have even changed their usernames. Indeed, you’re welcomed warmly by big contributors until they feel you’re overshadowing them a bit too much. Those for whom this is their main occupation then feel stripped of their tool for influence and popularity. Yet that’s not my goal at all. Before setting off to prepare the next trip, I invite those who’ve discovered places here to stop by later and say hello on the story, possibly adding extra information. To those who enjoyed Françoise’s photos, I’ll see you this winter for a new travel journal.

Hi Joel, I read your message with interest. I’d be happy to respond in a courteous manner, if you can assure me that my replies won’t be censored. Otherwise, we’ll leave it at that.

Thanks Joël for this amazing journal, and thanks also to Françoise for all those beautiful photos—it was such a pleasure reading you! 😉 Patricia

And even in Samui, the Thai people are super friendly, no hard sell, and you might have just gotten lucky! J P

After it kept happening, you’ve gotta believe it wasn’t by chance, JP!

Thanks for this story and these gorgeous photos—they’ve given me some great ideas for exploring Thailand next year!

Thanks for the kind words. Hope your trip lives up to your expectations.

Hi Joël, I really enjoyed reading your travel journal—it’s making me even more eager to go back to Thailand! You’ve captured some amazing moments, both in photos and videos, and I appreciate the care you put into your writing.

Christophe nailed it when describing your journal, and I completely agree. The way your sensitivity shines through is what makes it so special.

I don’t post on the forum nearly enough—I’m 28 but already have a great trip to the Land of Smiles under my belt...

Looking forward to reading more from you! !