No, I Won’t Be Going Back to China (page 8 of 13)

September 2018

No, I don’t think things have changed toward foreigners. But you can feel an increase in anti-terrorism surveillance in very busy places. Obviously, it’s done the Chinese way—just for show, with an unusual attitude. In short, they check anyone a police officer considers suspicious. I don’t know anyone this has happened to, and I appreciate being able to walk anywhere at night without fear of being attacked.

I just read your feedback with great interest and sadness. Is Xinjiang going to end up like Tibet? I knew the situation in the region had deteriorated, but I didn’t realize it was to this extent.

A travel journal coming soon?

I just got back from China and noticed the same things as you. I’d even add that for the Chinese, respecting traffic laws and copyright is more of a vague suggestion.

Now, while I sometimes felt the crowds were too dense and the subway too packed, you have to realize there are 25 million people in Beijing and 35 million in Shanghai. That’s Canada’s entire population in one city.

The concept of lining up doesn’t seem to exist. So when in Rome, do as the Romans do! I realized I’m pretty good at cutting in line.

You’re searched everywhere—that’s not Chinese culture, it’s the Communist Party’s control. Not really to control everything, but to make people realize they *could* know everything if they wanted. Because I seriously doubt a terrorist would target the Beijing subway, given how little the Chinese are involved in international conflicts.

The language—yeah, it can be frustrating at times. Some people don’t speak English and don’t even try. Fortunately, not everyone’s like that, and things are changing. I chatted with the woman sitting next to me on the train, and she told me her 3-year-old daughter was taking private English lessons.

So yes, I had a wonderful trip. But after 10 days, I was really glad when my plane touched down in Dorval.

I don’t quite understand what you mean about copyright. It’s true that working with the Chinese requires a good understanding of their culture. The best thing, of course, is to have Chinese friends. A verbal agreement carries much more weight there than here, but once something is decided, they stick to it. You really have to understand that the Chinese are excellent businesspeople in every sense. Negotiating every point of a contract is a must, and it can take time. Always stay calm, courteous, and respectful of their customs, and everything will go smoothly. Like any good businessperson, the Chinese want to keep their clients or partners happy. Scams might happen in tourist spots, targeting people you’ll never see again. But who hasn’t been scammed on the French Riviera? If it happens to you, just shout to draw a crowd and get the police involved. You’ll see how quickly things get resolved, even if you don’t speak Chinese. Safe travels to everyone, and leave your prejudices and arrogance at home before you go.

Besides, I’ve made over 50 trips to Shanghai and Beijing before, and no one checked me outside the airport.

And outside major museum entrances, and outside train station entrances (more casually)

And now what?

Besides, I’ve made over 50 trips to Shanghai and Beijing before, and no one ever checked me outside the airport.

And outside major museums and train stations (though more casually there)

Yeah, I forgot about the big museums, etc... exactly like here, my good sir

Your story is eye-opening.

And I haven’t told you everything...

I went to Xinjiang in 2013, and none of this was happening. I spent about ten days there without any ID checks on the street or at Urumqi train station when I arrived. Even when crossing the border by train from Kazakhstan, my luggage wasn’t searched.

The area near Kazakhstan is far less sensitive than Kashgaria, where the epicenter is in Yarkand (the Uyghurs are still a strong demographic majority there). Controls are probably much lighter there, even today.

Why such a crackdown? The effects of the war in Syria, where Uyghurs went to fight for ISIS? The various attacks in recent years?

The war in Syria is just a convenient backdrop to justify local measures internationally.

Attacks in Xinjiang don’t make the headlines in Western TV news, but they’re very real. At the very least, the ones officially reported are listed in en.wikipedia.org/...2007–present.

Since 2013, there have been, among others: - the attack on Tiananmen Square, - the attack at Kunming railway station, - the attack at Ürümqi railway station during a visit by Xi Jinping.

Above all, the security chief changed in August 2016—it’s now Chen Quanguo, who previously ran the Tibet Autonomous Region. He’s applying the same tactics tested and proven in Tibet to Xinjiang, while using cutting-edge technology: - mandatory GPS in all vehicles, - compulsory DNA sampling for the entire population.

I’m not optimistic about the local status of the Uyghurs. Xinjiang’s position as a communication hub toward Central Asia and its mineral and energy resources make it far too strategic. No matter who’s in power, China will never let go. Especially since the issue will be demographically resolved in a few decades.

There aren’t as many controls in Tibetan regions outside Tibet. In fact, there’s hardly any.

That’s exactly what I observed in Qinghai and the Tibetan areas of Gansu. At most, there were lighthearted checks to enter the new bus station in Xining.

I even visited a monastery where there were many photos of the Dalai Lama. His identity was confirmed to me with a big smile. Shows that the Chinese police still have some gaps...

Note: I don’t think I’ll return to Xinjiang. But I’d love to explore the cultural riches of the rest of China. The Chinese don’t have the same sense of hospitality as the Iranians, but I was still pleasantly surprised—it went against the reputation I’d heard. This discussion reflects that, but my experience was very enjoyable.

Sure, the Chinese rarely speak English outside of young, educated people in international megacities. But how many Americans speak a language other than English? The French population isn’t exactly open to foreign languages either (except those of immigrants).

In every country, learning even a little of the local language opens many hearts.

It was with a huge smile that the Han border guard at the Irkeshtam Pass told me, "Welcome back to China."

Fabrice

In two years, it’s 15 days in Xinjiang, and I’m sure I’d still have fewer problems than if I wandered off the beaten path in southern France! !

In light of my experience in Xinjiang in September 2018, I wouldn’t be so sure. Unless you’re talking about some of the notoriously rough areas in southern France.

Controls in Xinjiang are frequent and often extremely thorough.

For example, during my first train trip (Kashgar -> Kuqa), my backpack was searched completely, including the contents of an aspirin tube and a vitamin C tube. Once everything was unpacked and inspected, I was urgently told to pack up quickly, and my toiletry bag paid the price (probably mistakenly handed to the passenger next to me by the inspector).

Generally, access controls at Xinjiang’s train stations are strict and very time-consuming. Much more so than at other train stations I’ve used in Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi. In fact, when returning to Xinjiang, it was the only time I had an ID check on the train, between Liuyuan and Hami, including a photo of my passport, visa, and my face in the background: "welcome to Xinjiang" 😐.

Additionally, there are areas in Xinjiang where tourists are unofficially banned from entering.

For instance, in Yèchéng/Kargilik, I was stopped even before leaving the train station. To exit the station, there’s an ID check, like in Ürümqi (but surprisingly not in Kuqa). Spotted in the queue, I was taken aside by two security officers and escorted by four soldiers. The escort was polite but firm.

After a long wait—probably to get approval from higher-ups—the verdict came: no visiting anything. The security officers escorted me to the bus station, where they found me a shared taxi to Shāchē/Yarkand.

In Yarkand, I didn’t even get close to the city. At the first road checkpoint east of the city, I was pulled out of the shared taxi, taken over by three plainclothes officers, and driven to the western checkpoint. After a very long wait, I was finally handed off to a private vehicle (since there was no more public transport) heading to Kashgar. I arrived at 3:30 AM Beijing Time after multiple road checks.

But my troubles weren’t over. The neighborhood around my youth hostel (east of the lake) was blocked off by police, and I had to walk around three sides—2.5 km instead of 200 m—on foot, since it wasn’t in the direction of my escort.

In all my travels (see my profile), I’ve never experienced anything like this. Even the state of siege in Srinagar (Indian Kashmir) seems mild in comparison.

The Chinese state is highly professional in its security control over Xinjiang, using state-of-the-art technology. This includes 24/7 automatic photo identification of everything passing through major urban and intercity roads. It applies to both Han Chinese and Uyghurs without discrimination.

In Xinjiang, while train station access controls are tedious, they’re still less time-consuming than the numerous road checks. Stick to trains if you can!

Access to markets and bazaars is often also subject to security checks (X-ray for bags, metal detectors, pat-downs, and body scans). Even the very modest open-air market in the Uyghur town of Kuqa was surrounded by barbed wire fencing.

Surveillance cameras are everywhere, including in rural areas—like near a desecrated Muslim cemetery. I only realized this after a police car came to check on me and delete the photos I’d taken with my smartphone. Before that forced deletion, I’d only seen decorative ruins with the photogenic backdrop of the Flaming Mountains. The photo deletion made me question why what I’d seen was "sensitive."

In crowded places, like Kashgar’s historic old town, the police presence is overwhelming—almost 2-3 officers patrolling every 30 meters. And that’s just the uniformed ones...

These security measures are approved and appreciated by all the English-speaking Han Chinese I’ve discussed this with—both locals and tourists from coastal China (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen...).

Fabrice Non-Chinese speaker, though I’ve learned to count and use survival vocabulary (train station, train, bus, hotel, youth hostel, museum...).

P.S.: In Xinjiang, as well as in Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi, I had excellent interactions with the Chinese people I met, whether they spoke English or not. Just avoid groups.

What on earth are you planning to do in Xinjiang, LOL? You’re not unaware that there have been numerous attacks by Uyghur extremists that resulted in massacres at several train stations. The way this is managed is undoubtedly more "radical" than here, but as you point out, the Han Chinese appreciate this heavy police presence. You came back safe and sound—that’s what matters. And now you better understand the word "Chinese complications" :) Keep cool in all circumstances. If you travel with a general hatred of "cops," there might be some... misunderstandings.

Good evening, I’ve been traveling since 2000 (retired now) and spend about a month in France and another month in Spain or Italy every year. Every two years, I also take at least a month-long trip to Asia (China, Russia, Siberia, Mongolia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, etc.). I’ve never had any problems in Asia. On my own, I’ve driven 70,000 km in my vehicle, and I’ve often received help from police or locals. In Southern Europe, you can’t move around without locking up all your luggage or your vehicle. I’ve only had thefts and safety issues in Southern Europe. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky, but in Asia, I’ve always been welcomed warmly—even by families who could only offer me a bowl of rice. That’s why I prefer Asia for my vacations. I always travel alone in these countries. Everyone has their own preferences!

I often got help from the police or the locals.

Aaaah, the local... I don’t find them cooperative enough—sometimes they won’t carry my stuff or give up their seat on the bus 😜😜

For Xinjiang in 2020. My guide is Chinese, my friend is Uyghur, and my driver is from the region. And I’m not taking the train—my driver is taking me across the Taklamakan Desert from Kashgar to Urumqi.

Worth seeing in 2020, but all my Chinese contacts confirmed there wouldn’t be any problems.

We’ll see!!

When it comes to security, there’s no comparison. Our Western countries are far less safe than most tourist destinations. I’ll still set aside Central and South America, though.

That’s not what I was warning you about—it was the intensity of police road checks in Xinjiang. Always courteous, but extremely time-consuming.

While Chinese citizens go through automatic mode (ID card scan, facial recognition identity verification, automatic database logging), that’s not yet the case for foreign nationals: - Two separate checks and computer loggings by two different officers (making any collusion more complicated). - Passport photo + face shot in the background, seemingly sent to a specialist center for authentication. There must be some processing of the information and photo because the wait time far exceeds the time needed to input the data. Yet my current passport doesn’t list any sensitive destinations (so no Iran or Syria, where I’ve traveled in the past).

On top of that, there’s the vehicle check (X-rayed under a gantry, with no passengers or luggage) and the driver check (sometimes longer than for my passport).

Finally, if you arrive after a few buses or during rush hour, you’ll be stuck in line for a long time.

Also, note that speed limits are relatively low and strictly followed by drivers. On top of surveillance cameras, there must be plenty of speed cameras...

All these hassles are avoided by taking the train.

This is really specific to Xinjiang. No road checks during the rest of my trip.

The road network is of very high quality, especially the highways, but heavy with freight traffic on toll-free roads. When there’s construction, the traffic jam can get very long with all those trucks.

at least 1 month in Asia (China, Russia, Siberia, Mongolia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, etc.).

Since summer 2017, third-country nationals can enter Xinjiang from Tajikistan via the Kulma Pass. That was my case in late August 2018, and I ended up on the Karakoram Highway near Tashkurgan.

Fabrice

Worth seeing in 2020, but all my Chinese contacts confirmed there wouldn’t be any problems.

It would cost them a lot to admit there are "problems" in this great China that’s reclaiming its standing.

Still, as long as you don’t stop between Kashgar and Khotan/Hotan (an area I was "expelled" from), and your guides vouch for you, things should go smoothly.

You’re more likely to fear an earthquake. Or getting hit by an electric scooter you didn’t hear, since sidewalks are often given over to them—especially in Kashgar.

my driver took me across the Taklamakan Desert from Kashgar to Urumqi.

If you’re not going to Khotan, that means you’ll take the Northern Route via Aksu, Kuqa, and Korla. In that case, you’ll skirt the Taklamakan but not cross it. To cross it via one of the two desert roads, you’d have to go through either Khotan (toward Aksu/Kuqa) or Niya or Qiemo (toward Korla). That means taking the Southern Route, at least partly—the same one Marco Polo and your fellow countryman Ella Maillart traveled.

The distance from Kashgar to Ürümqi is huge, with few sights to see along the way...

urumki

Ürümqi is pronounced "Urumtchi" for French speakers. For the Han, it’s "Wulumutchi." Learning to pronounce pinyin is helpful for being understood—even by English speakers, especially for place names.

Gute Reise!

Fabrice

What on earth were you doing in Xinjiang, LOL

All the Silk Road itineraries passed through Xinjiang. As a result, there’s a wealth of artistic and cultural heritage there. That said, it was the landscapes that really blew me away: - The Karakoram Highway. - The natural setting of Tashkorgan. - The Tianshan Canyon, north of Kuqa. - The Flaming Mountains near Turpan. - The grape-drying racks around Turpan. There can’t be many places left where silk Atlas is still made by hand, like in Jiya, near Khotan.

You’re not unaware that there have been numerous attacks by Uyghur extremists

Absolutely—I’d been planning this trip since 2009 (after a first opportunity in 1995!), so I wasn’t oblivious to the fact that the region is under tight security.

In the cities, the checks turned out to be far less intrusive than some reports suggested, with claims of passport controls every 20 meters in certain areas.

In Kashgar, for example, I was only checked to enter the bazaar, the train station, the bus station, a small underground shopping hall near Id Kah Square, and the tourist sites I visited (Abakh Khoja Mausoleum, Kashgar District Museum). But I wasn’t checked at all in the historic old town of Kashgar, where I could wander freely.

Similar experiences in Tashkorgan, Kuqa, Ürümqi, Turpan, and Khotan.

What did surprise me was how much time the checks wasted—especially the roadside ones.

which resulted in massacres in several train stations.

It made headlines in China, but on a national scale, it’s microscopic. The Kunming station attack had 31 deaths—not even a Bataclan. On November 13, 2015, Paris had 130 deaths. That’d be the equivalent of 2,817 deaths in China’s population.

More than massacres, these are challenges to the Party’s "enlightened" governance—an unacceptable challenge to its authority.

Their way of handling it is undoubtedly more "radical" than ours, but as you point out, the Han Chinese appreciate this heavy police presence.

And I told them that if attacks like Bataclan 2015 or Nice 2016 happened too often, France could see similar security measures within 10 years. A state’s first duty has always been to ensure its citizens’ safety—even if it means building a fortress.

If you go in with a general hatred of "cops," there might be some... misunderstandings.

What made you think I had any hatred for cops in my comments?

I mentioned that the checks were always polite—sometimes even friendly. Like that young police officer who told me he was a software-engineering graduate... "and now, I’m a cop 😕..." Clearly disappointed with his career prospects. Others asked me about Paris, a city they dream of for its supposed romance. Most of the officers who dealt with me spoke some English, which made these exchanges possible.

Fabrice

My plan is: Bishkek - Torugart - Kashgar - Yarkant - Hotan - Kuqa - Korla - Turpan - Ürümqi. Over 15-20 days.

Your experience in Yarkand will be interesting to hear, given my "deportation."

Note that in Khotan, very few hotels accept foreigners. In fact, only one hotel claimed to welcome foreigners, but it was already fully booked by midday—apparently due to a large number of Pakistani guests.

It took police intervention for the Khotan Hotel to agree to take me in, but at a price that was highly discouraging. Maybe a subtle way to refuse me, despite the police’s efforts—several officers really went out of their way to help and support me.

Fabrice

And there you have it. She carries my luggage for free! And in 70% of cases, they didn’t even want me to carry my own bags! I’m 76 years old, and 80% of Chinese people would give up their seat for me on buses! And this only happens in China! It’s never happened to me in Europe!!

For my part, I’ve taken many trips to Greece and Italy when I was younger. I mainly took the ferry from Ancona to Patras, but also traveled by road through the former Eastern Bloc countries. I never had any problems anywhere. We once left a large camera bag containing all our money on a terrace in Genoa. When we returned a few hours later, we found our bag untouched behind the bar at the restaurant. I think it all depends on our attitude, no matter where I’ve been. I’ve always been extremely cautious in highly touristy areas by not flaunting anything that might attract envy: keeping my watch in my pocket, wearing ordinary and worn-out clothes, using minimal photo gear that’s artificially aged, and never looking like I’m searching for something—only pulling out a map in discreet spots. In Naples, for example, I accepted the paid help of a young local "guide" and was able to go wherever I wanted without any issues. A little common sense never hurts.

In China, I only go for work, so most of my tourist stops are with Chinese friends. But I often go for walks in Shanghai in the evening, sometimes very late, and no one has ever bothered me. In professional relationships, I’ve never had any bad surprises after concluding a contract—sometimes just verbal but always very detailed and therefore inevitably time-consuming. I’m learning Chinese, which makes my interlocutors laugh a lot, but everyone appreciates the effort you’re making.

But basically, we agree. I didn’t write that I sensed any hatred of cops in what you said. It was a general remark, probably poorly worded. Corruption and dishonesty are rare among "ordinary" Chinese people, who’ve been taught certain principles since school and tend to respect them. I see this among the many students I interact with, often from working-class backgrounds. On the street, as soon as someone realizes you’re French, you hear "De Gaulle" in a flood of Chinese words. De Gaulle is compared to Mao. They both restored their country’s independence through acts of bravery.... You have to understand that "the Party," as people here often call it—and you can think what you want about it (but just think, otherwise Switzerland might be a better option)—wants to develop tourism. Why would the police bother people who are supposed to go home praising China? I see police officers and military personnel as people doing their jobs seriously, nothing more, nothing less. Stay calm, smile, and nothing bad will happen to you. There are over 10,000 French expats in Shanghai. It’s a very organized community, easy to connect with thanks to *Le Petit Journal de Shanghai*, which I recommend reading before your stay to avoid many misunderstandings. Of course, there are issues here like anywhere else—renting or buying an apartment, for example—but the French community will help you avoid known pitfalls. Don’t forget to register (by mail) with the French Embassy or Consulate before you leave. Jean https://lepetitjournal.com/shanghai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBJzhp7Oskg&t=401s

In October 2017 in Xinjiang, in Kuitun (east of Ürümqi), I was stopped by Chinese police and taken to the police station, where I spent an afternoon being interrogated. From what I understood during the interrogation (same questions for hours, I think to see if I’d give the same answers), the officers thought I was a journalist "disguised" as a tourist. They checked my camera and my laptop. Everything was handled courteously, and once they were sure I wasn’t a journalist, they drove me back in a police car to where they’d stopped me!

During my road trips (Ürümqi, Kuitun, Urho, and back to Ürümqi), I must’ve been stopped at least fifteen times, with each stop lasting at least 10 to 15 minutes. Again, it was always courteous—during one check, since it was freezing cold, they even let me into a prefab building and brought me a chair!! There was only one stop where the atmosphere was really tense (not weather-wise!!!), where the officer who checked me didn’t even bother to look at me or say a word...

And a little moment of laughter with two officers in Urho: I was waiting in my hotel lobby, and when I saw the police come in, I took out my passport to hand it over. They walked right past me without even checking me, and as they left, they said in English, "Have a nice trip in Urho"!!!

In October 2017 in Xinjiang, in Kuitun (east of Urumqi), I was stopped by the Chinese police and taken to the police station, where I spent an afternoon being interrogated. From what I understood during the interrogation (same questions for hours, I think to see if I gave the same answers every time), the police thought I was a journalist "disguised" as a tourist. They checked my camera and my laptop. Everything went courteously, and once they were sure I wasn’t a journalist, they drove me back in a police car to where they’d stopped me! During my road trips (Urumqi, Kuitun, and Urho, then back to Urumqi), I was checked at least fifteen times, with each stop lasting at least 10 to 15 minutes. Same thing—always courteous—even during one check when it was very cold, they had me come into a prefab building and brought me a chair!! Only one check had a very cold atmosphere (not meteorologically speaking!!!), where the officer who checked me didn’t even deign to look at me and didn’t say a word... And a little laugh with two police officers in Urho, where I was waiting in the lobby of my hotel. When I saw the officers come in, I took out my passport to hand to them, but they walked right past me without even checking me. As they left, they said in English, "have a nice trip in Urho"!!!

That’s the China I know :) Stay zen, and everything goes well—sometimes slowly, which gives you time to meditate and observe... You never waste your time by staying positive and avoiding complaints. But what’s said in this post should make us vigilant. Bring a "clean" laptop to avoid any misunderstandings: no photos of your bedroom exploits, etc. Jean