hey everyone,

I’m landing in Madagascar with a buddy before the end of April 2026. We’re planning to bike around for about twenty days or so. We don’t have a specific goal other than exploring the country and meeting the locals.

Ideally, we’d prefer a loop route starting from Antananarivo with a good chunk of it along the coast. On the bike side, we’re used to riding 6 to 8 hours a day, depending on the needs, encounters, and mood 😉 Any feedback or tips from trips around this length?

Thanks in advance, Jérôme

The RandoCamping site is free for users and hosts.

Its goal is to help trekkers find accommodations (usually by the night) all across France and to promote hosts who welcome trekkers satisfactorily.

Check it out here: https://randocamping.touteslatitudes.fr

The site is collaborative and supported by associations like Cyclo-Camping International or AF3V.

It lets you plan a trip or trek (on foot or by bike) by searching for accommodations along a route. The accommodations come from the DataTourisme platform (which aggregates information from Tourist Offices) and from users (trekkers & hosts).

Train lines and passenger stations are also listed. Clicking on a station can show you (if the data is available) how accessible the platforms are with a non-dismantled bike. Bike and hiking routes come from Waymarked Trails (which is based on OpenStreetMap).

You can find more details about the site’s features on this page (version 1.0): https://randovelo.touteslatitudes.fr/randocamping-v1/

Hi there, I’d like to cycle around Guadeloupe during the Christmas holidays. I was wondering if it’s dangerous, if it’s easy to rent a bike, and to find accommodation along the way? Thanks!

For map lovers, bike routes, cycle touring all over the planet, and long-haul trips...

I had fun compiling in one place ALL the routes my partner and I have biked across the planet since 1996: Quebec far and wide, of course, but also Canada, the USA (crossed completely by bike 3 times), Mexico, and all the way to Ushuaia—basically the entire Americas.

In Europe, the Balkans, Turkey; and more recently (2024: Taiwan, Korea, and 4 months in Japan!) You can check out a global map with all the routes by continent, more detailed maps by country, and others that focus on a region, like the Balkans in Eastern Europe. In short, there’s something for everyone!

I’ve included 3 photos here, but the originals (via the link above) let you zoom in infinitely. Plus, many of my routes are represented by lines with a different color for each day of biking. Hope some of you enjoy browsing through all this as much as I enjoyed compiling it. Until the snow comes, skiing... and spring!

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/TDM_en_Tandem_Trajets_Maps

Hi everyone,

First post here to share a quick recap of our west-to-east bike trip along Algeria’s coast in January 2025. It was just the two of us—my partner and I—with French passports and not a word of Arabic. No friends or welcoming hosts in the country.

Under those conditions, we’d strongly advise against going.

Our original plan was to follow the coast from Algiers to Tunis. We ended up cycling from Algiers to Béjaia, then took the train from Béjaia to Annaba (with a stop in Constantine), and finally biked to the border. We were tailed by police the whole way—whether on our bikes, on the train, or even on foot while exploring towns. On top of that, we couldn’t wild camp and were limited to the few state-approved hotels that accept foreigners. Under those circumstances, connecting with locals was especially tough.

With such an omnipresent and intrusive police presence, we’d definitely recommend against this destination for bike touring. A really sad situation that completely cuts you off from the local population...

We’d been warned, we went to check it out, and we weren’t disappointed!

You’ve been warned.

Hi fellow travelers! I’m planning a trip to Japan from March 22 to April 12 and really want to bike the Shimanami Kaido starting from Onomichi, but I don’t cycle regularly. Has anyone here done it and could share their experience or tips? Is the weather in March-April favorable? Should I plan for 2 or 3 days? Electric or regular bike? What’s better—having my luggage forwarded along the route or leaving it in a locker? Any recommendations for accommodations or bike rentals? Thanks in advance for your replies!

Hi there, I’m planning to cycle around Taiwan in 2026 and I’d love to know if it’s possible to do the whole island on bike paths, how many kilometers that would be, whether wild camping is easy, and so on…

Hi there, We’re leaving from Montreal and planning to bike the Petit Train du Nord route. Any ideas for loops so we don’t have to return the same way? We’re thinking of a one-week trip. Thanks in advance for your tips! Rachel

Hi there! I’m really keen to cycle from Bruges to Amsterdam. Has anyone here done it before? We’re a group of three—is it easy to find accommodation on the go, or should we book ahead? If we do a round trip and take our bikes, would it be simpler to plan two different routes?! Thanks so much! Laurence from Bayonne

I'm currently exploring how to create a travel itinerary using AI, specifically ChatGPT.

Question: Bike route from Bordeaux to Paris.

Rough response:

A bike route between Bordeaux and Paris is an incredible adventure, typically around 600 to 650 km depending on the chosen path. Here’s an example of an itinerary with key points:Main Option: La Scandibérique (EuroVelo 3) La Scandibérique is the French section of EuroVelo 3, connecting Bordeaux to Paris through stunning landscapes. This route is well-marked and takes you through small roads and greenways.Main Stages

Bordeaux → Libourne (about 40 km)

Follow the Garonne River, cross the vineyards of Entre-deux-Mers, and reach Libourne, a charming wine town. Greenways available.

Libourne → Périgueux (about 100 km)

Cross the Dordogne with stops in villages like Montpon-Ménestérol. Mix of quiet small roads and trails.

Périgueux → Châteauroux (about 160 km, in several stages)

Through the Parc Naturel Régional de la Brenne. This stage is longer but rich in nature and heritage.

Châteauroux → Orléans (about 110 km)

Reach the banks of the Loire to enjoy the famous Loire à Vélo, a beautiful section with châteaux.

Orléans → Paris (about 140 km)

Pass through the Forêt de Fontainebleau before joining the bike paths along the Seine all the way to Paris.

A firsthand account of a 30-day cycling trip (the length of the visa) in southern Vietnam, from Hue to the Mekong Delta. 1,500 kilometers pedaled in December 2022 and January 2023.

Roads and Traffic The roads are generally in very good condition. The secondary road network is limited. Since Vietnam is a densely populated country, needless to say, traffic is often heavy, including on secondary roads. Cyclists, along with pedestrians, are at the very bottom of the road-user hierarchy. In short, when you're on a bike, you never have the right of way. The atmosphere is deafening—Vietnamese people honk all the time. For a Western ear, it's hard to tell the difference between a honk that just signals someone's presence, one that warns of imminent danger, or an angry honk. 😏

Weather Vietnam is a long, narrow country (1,600 km). The weather isn’t the same in the north, center, or south. I cycled through the central part in December. Even though the monsoon peak had passed, I still encountered a lot of rain. Since the monsoon usually lasts until January, it might be better to cycle there starting in February. I was in the Mekong Delta in January. The best season, as it’s the driest month with the least hot temperatures. At this time of year, the prevailing winds come from the northeast. So, it’s better to travel from north to south. That way, you’ll usually have the wind at your back.

Accommodation I always stayed in hotels without ever booking in advance. Typically, I paid between 10 and 20 € for a double room with a private bathroom and AC. To find hotels, I used Google Maps and Maps.me. Wi-Fi is available for free almost everywhere.

The Route Hue → Danang → Hoi An → Nha Trang → Phan Rang → Tan Son → Dalat → Di Linh → Mui Ne → La Gi → Vung Tau → Nha Be → My Tho → Tra Vinh → Can Tho → Cao Lanh → Tranh Hoa → Trang Bang I took the train from Danang to Nha Trang. Not all trains accept bikes, so you’ll need to check beforehand. The railway handles bikes—they’re packed by staff and travel in the same train but in a freight car. I paid 14 € for the ticket plus 7 € for the bike (there’s an extra 0.50 € to pay upon arrival).

The Verdict So, is cycling in Vietnam worth it? If you enjoy biking in traffic, then yes. Otherwise... 😎

Hi everyone, We’re planning to spend 5 months cycling as a family in Central Asia. To align with the weather, we’re thinking of arriving in Uzbekistan in April, heading toward the Ferghana Valley in late April/early May, and wrapping up with a long stretch in Kyrgyzstan from mid-May to early August.

I haven’t really dug into the third part (Kyrgyzstan) yet, but from what I’ve seen on the forum and online, cycling across Uzbekistan doesn’t seem all that appealing: long, straight desert stretches with lots of trucks.

Has anyone come across any "hidden gem" routes they’d be willing to share? I’ve already noted that it’s best to avoid riding toward Tashkent. I’m looking for routes between Bukhara and Samarkand, and any nearby areas that are nice for cycling.

I’d love to fly into Dushanbe to reach Samarkand, but we all agree that it’s not a good fit for the season (early April) if we’re cycling, right?

Thanks for your feedback! Ludo

Hi there,

I’m currently looking for a bike to do my first bike trip across France, with the ultimate goal of cycling through Latin America. I’ve got a lot of questions and I’d love to hear if you have any answers or advice to share. First off, I’ve been through this before with hiking. I want to get top-quality gear right away. When I started hiking, I ended up buying everything three times—first beginner gear, then intermediate, then expert, etc. For biking, I’d prefer to skip that process and invest right now in a bike that could ideally handle Latin America. I’ve set a total max budget of around 5000 € (roughly 4000–4500 € for the bike and the rest for accessories: panniers, helmet, cycling shorts, etc.).

So, I’ve got quite a few questions:

* I’ve read in several places that some people recommend buying the bike directly in Latin America. Since I need a first bike to train in Europe, would it be better to buy an entry-level bike in France (and sell it before the big departure)? Or is it preferable to start right away with my final bike to get used to it? Is buying it there just to save a bit of money?

* For a long-term trip (around six months) in Latin America, is it better to go for a gravel bike or a mountain bike?

* Should I buy a new bike or a refurbished one? Even more so given that I’m planning a long trip—could a refurbished bike end up causing more breakdowns?

If you have any advice on models, technical features to prioritize, or recommended sellers or resellers, I’d love to hear it. I’m a total beginner—I’ve only just started watching videos and reading up on the subject, and all the technical specs are new to me!

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hi everyone,

With summer just around the corner, I’m looking for ideas for organized bike trips in France or Italy. I’m pretty used to traveling independently, but this time I’d like to try something more structured—either in a small group or with minimal logistics (accommodations booked, luggage transport, etc.).

I’m open to different difficulty levels, as long as the setting is pleasant (countryside, seaside, well-known routes, or even a bit more off-the-beaten-path). If you’ve already tried this kind of trip or have good recommendations for agencies or providers, I’d love to hear them!

Thanks in advance for your tips! 🚴‍♂️☀️

Hi, We’re planning to start the Camino del Cid from Vivar del Cid (Burgos) to Atienza in April. How can we get back and pick up our car, which we left in Burgos? I haven’t found any info on this. Thanks for your tips!

Assalamu 'alaykum, Hi everyone,

This thread is to echo some posts I’ve read on this forum while researching a potential bike trip from Annecy to Mecca. I came across several discussions where members mentioned being very interested in cycling to the holy city.

So, God willing, I plan to attempt this journey from January to June next year. The idea is to head to Turkey first, then assess the most reasonable routes based on the geopolitical situation around Palestine and as far as Iraq. Since the Turkish-Syrian border is closed, the only remaining (and I mean *only* remaining) overland option would be to go through Iraqi Kurdistan, Iraq, then Jordan, and finally Saudi Arabia.

That’s the first major challenge of this project. The second is timing. Due to the schedule, I’ll be starting in the middle of winter across Europe and finishing in the peak of summer in Saudi Arabia. If I’d had a choice, I’d have waited a good dozen years—but well, twelve years...

I won’t go into too much detail about the planned route in this post, but here are the broad strokes already set: Annecy to Istanbul. The rest is a bit too far ahead to map out properly. Crossing the Italian border via the Montgenèvre Pass. Straight through northern Italy as quickly as possible (not necessarily very pleasant) to reach Ljubljana. The fastest route through Croatia to spend as much time as possible in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Serbia via the Sandžak region. It crosses the Pešter plateau, which intimidates me at this time of year—its nickname, the "Siberia of the Balkans," says it all... Then Kosovo, North Macedonia, Greece, and Turkey.

I’m open to any advice on this itinerary. The choice was made to pass through as many Muslim-majority regions as possible. In the middle of winter in the Balkans, I don’t feel mentally up to bivouacking alone in that climate. So, I’ll try to find accommodations in mosques or even with locals as much as possible.

That’s the project in a nutshell. The big catch—some of you may have already noticed—is that I’m doing this solo. Yet, this is strongly discouraged by our Prophet—peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. So, I invite anyone interested in joining this project, whether closely or from afar, to reach out and contact me. Any contribution is welcome, whether it’s company for the whole journey (one can always hope!) or just part of it. Advice, contact suggestions, places to stay, and information about Hajj or Umrah are also appreciated.

Thanks for reading this far. I’ll try to check my VoyageForum account from time to time to see if anyone has responded to this thread and will happily reply to your messages and questions.

Take care, Assalamu'alaykum.

Sam

Hello,

I’m planning to cycle from Paris to Prague in three weeks. It’s the worst time of year temperature-wise, especially since I’m pretty sensitive to the cold. But I don’t have a choice about either the timing or the destination (it’s a break between two jobs that just happens to fall during this period, and I’m heading to Prague to meet friends for a specific event in mid-February).

So it’s going to be *very* cold. And while I’ve done a few relaxed one- to two-week bike trips before, I’ve never cycled in winter. That’s why I’d love your advice on two things! :)

1- Accommodation along the route On my previous trips, the weather was more forgiving, so I always brought my tent and didn’t have to worry about accommodation logistics. But this time, it’s a whole different story—I won’t be able to sleep outside (too cold + it gets dark too early). So I need to plan all my lodging in advance.

I’ve looked at a few existing threads about cycling from Paris to Prague, but they all focus on campsites/tents since the timing allowed for outdoor sleeping. Does anyone know: 1- If those campsites, which seem to be fairly evenly spaced along the route, have winter facilities (I assume most close in winter, but you never know)? This is especially important for the German and Czech sections (I’ll be fine in France). 2- How easy it is to find affordable youth hostels everywhere, and if so, whether I should book them in advance?

2- Winter cycling gear Since I’ve never cycled in winter before, I don’t have the right gear. I’m particularly concerned about gloves and shoes, since my extremities will take a beating. What shoes would you recommend for temperatures around 0°C? I don’t plan to cycle in winter again after this, and all my other trips have been in regular running shoes, which worked just fine for me. So I’d prefer not to spend a fortune on super technical gear that I’ll only use once. But I also don’t want to skimp on cold protection—being freezing could ruin the whole trip. So if the only solution is "super technical" shoes, I’ll go for it.

> What shoes do you wear or recommend for simple bike trips that keep your feet warm and dry? > Does the overshoe option (over a pair of regular sneakers, for example) seem like a good solution? (I just discovered overshoes—I have no idea how effective they are.) If so, are Decathlon’s overshoes good enough, or should I go to a specialty bike shop?

Thanks so much!

(Oops, sorry for the novel...)

Hi there! Every year, we go on a cycling trip abroad with panniers, lasting about two weeks. We stay in step lodgings, guesthouses, and the like. We mostly take small roads and really enjoyed northern Montenegro and Albania last year.

We’d love to hear from anyone who’s cycled in these countries before: tips on finding quiet roads, highlights of the regions we’ll pass through, how welcoming the locals are, and so on. Thanks in advance for any replies or exchanges!

Hi! I’m planning to visit the Stockholm Archipelago by bike in early April. Do you know if the boats will be running between the different islands at that time of year? For those who’ve already been, all your tips and recommendations are welcome—accommodation, etc. Also, do you know where I can rent a bike in Stockholm? Thanks so much in advance for your help!

Hi everyone,

I’m heading to Chile this coming November and I’d love to spend a few days cycling from Santiago (Chile) to Mendoza (Argentina).

Has anyone done this route before? If so, do you have any tips (stages, gear, accommodation spots, etc.)?

Also, to avoid carrying too much stuff, I’d like to rent a bike in Santiago. Any recommendations for a good rental shop?

Thanks so much in advance for your help :)

Clément

Hi there, I’ve been road cycling for several years, and I’m about to switch to gravel in the next few days—I’m waiting for my bike, which should arrive this week. I’m planning a bikepacking trip in a few weeks along the Véloroute V81, also known as the Vélosud, from Biarritz to Le Barcarès. Has anyone here already done this route? Any info is welcome, whether it’s about the route itself, gear, or accommodation. I’ll prioritize staying with locals as much as possible. On that note, I just signed up for the brand-new site *Guidon et Couette* ((www.guidon-et-couette.fr)), which offers free accommodation between cyclists across the country, but there’s almost no one listed along my route! Thanks in advance. Laurent.

Hi there,

Just a few words about the loop I did by bike in Yunnan.

Entry and exit

I entered China through the Sino-Vietnamese border crossing at Lào Cai / Hekou under the 30-day visa exemption currently available to French nationals and others.

The process was simple and quick. A Chinese police officer even helped me complete my electronic pre-registration at a computer kiosk. I wasn’t aware this formality was required—it’s similar to Thailand’s TM6.

No issues with the bike.

I left the country via the Sino-Laotian border crossing at Mohan / Boten.

The atmosphere was a bit chaotic there, but again, no problems with the bike.

The timing

I visited Yunnan in February 2026.

Weather-wise, at higher altitudes (between 1,500 and 2,000 meters), it was around ten degrees at night and in the mornings, and around twenty degrees at the hottest part of the day.

I had two days of rain, so I took the bus to keep moving. Otherwise, clear blue skies.

Culturally, Chinese New Year fell on February 17th (and the 15 days following), right in the middle of my trip. Because of this, my take on the traffic might be off.

Accommodation and food I always found a hotel to stay in for prices ranging from 8 to 15 €. Except in Kunming (the capital), where many hotels were fully booked (Chinese New Year). I ended up at a 100 € hotel with great value for money.

A bowl of noodles costs about 1.5 € on average.

Onboard electronics Since my smartphone doesn’t support eSIMs, I subscribed to a China plan with my carrier. Otherwise, for much cheaper, Alipay offers eSIMs for foreigners that allow access to services usually blocked for Chinese users (WhatsApp, Facebook, etc.).

An internet connection is essential for paying with Alipay or WeChat, as this payment method is widespread.

I only managed to use Alipay.

Either way, always carry cash because sometimes there’s no signal, or the merchant only accepts WeChat.

Also, it’s best to bring a power adapter when you arrive rather than struggling to find one.

Traffic and roads The Chinese aren’t reckless drivers. They follow traffic rules and watch out for cyclists. This is slightly less true in Xishuangbanna (the region bordering Myanmar and Laos).

In urban areas, there are almost always wide bike lanes, separated from other roads, where bikes, electric mini-scooters, and scooters share the space pretty harmoniously.

The roads are in great condition, and traffic is generally manageable—even light—except for one stretch (Eshan -> Yangwu).

Most traffic is absorbed by expressways, China’s equivalent of highways: toll roads that are off-limits to slow vehicles.

You’re never far from these expressways; sometimes you even ride alongside them, which can be noisy at times.

The climbs are usually reasonable, around 5% to 6%. From what I remember, the steepest section was between Menglun and Mengla, with gradients of 8% to 10%, sometimes more.

Riding at these altitudes—though modest—took a bit of getting used to.

The route I didn’t plan anything in advance. My only goal was to reach Kunming. I don’t know why, but just hearing the name of that city, like Yunnan, always felt dreamy to me.

Here’s the breakdown: Hekou -> Man Hao (94 km); Man Hao -> Yuanyang (64 km); Yuanyang -> Jianshui (bus); Jianshui -> Tong Hai (78 km); Tong Hai -> Chenjiang (85 km); Chenjiang -> Kunming (60 km); Kunming -> Kunyang (60 km); Kunyang -> Eshan (67 km); Eshan -> Yangwu (58 km); Yangwu -> Yuanjiang (59 km); Yuanjiang -> Pu'er (bus); Pu'er -> Dadugang (75 km); Dadugang -> Jinghong (80 km); Jinghong -> Menglun (67 km); Menglun -> Mengyuancun (51 km); Mengyuancun -> Mengla (43 km); Mengla -> Boten (67 km).

Otherwise, I’m currently in Thailand and just hoping my return flight with Qatar won’t get canceled.

Oh well... 😉

Hi everyone, We’re planning a trip to Cambodia from November 30 to December 21, 2025. We haven’t decided yet whether we’ll land in Phnom Penh or Siem Reap. We’re thinking of covering between 800 and 1,000 km by bike, but we’d rather not bring our trusty rides all that way. Has anyone here already tried buying bikes locally? Do you know if it’s easy to pick one up once we’re there? We’d love to hear about your experiences and any tips you might have. Thanks so much, everyone!

I’m planning a journey of about 2500 km starting from San Pedro de Atacama (duration: max. 2 months). This trip, almost entirely on remote trails, promises to be an extraordinary adventure.

Highlights of the trip - Crossing the Florido Desert (during the blooming season: October 15–30) - Hiking ascents of legendary volcanoes: - Ojos del Salado (6879 m) - Llullaillaco (6739 m) - Uturuncu (6008 m, with 5820 m reachable by mountain bike!) - A 300 km stage through the heart of the desert, with no resupply or habitation: the ultimate experience of solitude and self-transcendence.

Practical details - Daily distance: max. 100 km and 1000 m elevation gain per day - Average altitude: 4000 m (between 3500 and 5000 m) - Temperatures: ~15 °C during the day, down to -25 °C at night (in a tent) - Accommodation: ~50% in villages (with locals or small hostels), ~50% camping

Estimated budget - 1400 € for the flight ticket (including bike supplement) - 1000 € for on-the-ground expenses

Required equipment - Fatbike (essential for deep sand) - -25 °C comfort sleeping bag - Single-wheel trailer (indispensable for these tough terrains)

My experience In 2022, I completed a similar 1200 km trip north of San Pedro de Atacama: - Full crossing of the Salar de Uyuni (170 km) - Ascents of the Ollague (5868 m) and Aucanquilcha (6176 m) volcanoes - Two 200 km stages with no resupply or human presence Videos available for a glimpse of the adventure: - Atacama Crossing 2022 - Part 1 - Atacama Crossing 2022 - Part 2

Next steps If this adventure interests you, I suggest: 1. A first phone call to get to know each other 2. A meet-up over a drink or a test ride in the Bardenas Reales (similar terrain, and I live 100 km away)

Don’t hesitate to contact me for more info or to discuss the details!

Hello, I spent a month cycling in Thailand earlier this year with a touring bike equipped with two rear panniers. I loved being able to ride and stop at a hotel every night, and eat just about anywhere. I tried India two months ago but gave up because of the road conditions and chaotic traffic.

I’m looking for countries where I can cycle "without autonomy"—so no tent, no stove, just the bare minimum. Ideally, I’d like to stop at hotels or similar accommodations regularly, without having to cover 200 km a day!

I’d love to hear from your experiences—what countries make it easy to travel this way? Thanks!

Hi there!!

We’re planning a bike trip down the Douro from the Spanish border to Porto in May 2025. We’re looking for any info on possible routes and trails, as well as camping options and/or homestays. Thanks so much!!

Good evening,

We’re planning a cycling tour in Denmark and I’m figuring out how to get there. We have electric mountain bikes (and since I’m really happy with mine, I’d prefer not to rent bikes there). We have 9 days.

- I looked into trains, but the prices aren’t great, and I’m worried we won’t always be able to take our bikes. Packing them in a bag and disassembling them seems overwhelming, especially given how big mine is.

- The Flexibus: we’d have to go through Paris from Lyon, which would waste a lot of time.

- Flying? It might not be more expensive than the train.

- We have a camper van, and I’m wondering if that’s an option. Do you know if you can park your vehicle for a week in a parking lot? I get the impression that parking time is limited. Thanks for your advice! Have a great evening,

Sandrine

Good evening, I’m planning a solo bike road trip along the EuroVelo 6, starting from Orléans all the way to Budapest, beginning May 1st, 2026! Question: Have any of you used the Warmshowers site, and if so, I’d love to hear your thoughts on using this app—whether responses to hosting requests are generally satisfying, especially for the different countries I’ll be crossing! Thanks in advance for your tips! Philippe

Hi, We’re traveling as a couple in mid-April for 7 days in the Netherlands. We want to see Amsterdam, the tulips, and the windmills. We’d like to bike through the tulip fields. We’re not athletes, but physical ability probably won’t be an issue. How many days should we devote to each part? (Amsterdam-windmills-tulips) Is it better to stay outside Amsterdam for the windmill-tulip portion? (like 2 nights in Leiden?) Is renting bikes a problem? Should we rent a car, or is public transport efficient? Thanks so much in advance for taking the time to answer! Mélanie

We’re planning to cycle along the Baltic coast this summer, from Flensburg all the way to the Polish border—and maybe even a little farther along the Polish coast. By e-bike and staying in hotels (we’re not exactly spring chickens). Any tips? Challenges, places to stay, signage? Other thoughts?