4x4 trip to Egypt in the Libyan Desert?

So I'm looking for people who've just done the Libyan Desert, sand sea, oases, etc. with their 4x4. Any info is welcome, thanks in advance. Like entry formalities for the 4x4. Agency and guide for the desert.

Good evening - Entry formalities for any vehicle in Egypt ==> Carnet de Passage (check with the Automobile Club of France) absolutely essential - Sand Sea (Gift El Kebir) for this destination requires going through an agency, as the logistics are quite heavy, and they handle everything Here are the details for a reliable one: http://www.zarzora.com/index-5.php

Hello,

We’ve just returned from a 15-day trip to Egypt by 4x4, starting from Venice by ferry. We went through an agency with a small group of 7 vehicles because of the complexity of the procedures involved. In addition to the customs passbook that needs to be provided, you should know that the desert is a military zone, so you need an escort. For our group, we were 12 participants and were escorted by 13 military personnel! 5 from the tourist police, 6 from the army, and 2 guides from the Egyptian agency. Of course, this comes at a cost, but it’s less burdensome when shared among a group. The military were very discreet—they never asked us to change our itinerary and never interfered with us. The formalities at the port of Alexandria are quite tedious: 4 hours and 30 minutes on the way out, despite the agency’s intervention. We were required to buy a 3 kg fire extinguisher (55 €), even though we already had extinguishers. On the way back, it was only slightly better—just 3 hours and 30 minutes. We had to provide a certificate from the police stating that we hadn’t had any accidents and had no outstanding fines.

We didn’t regret using an agency because another group that arrived via Syria couldn’t go into the desert or even to Abu Simbel.

Happy to answer any other questions.

Annick

Hello and thank you for your reply. I’m getting back to you because I’m eager for answers—I’ve got a lot of questions!

What was your itinerary? If I understand correctly, you spent 15 days there on the ground, right?

Where did you get the Carnet de Passage en Douane, and how much did it cost?

Could you share the costs from your agency, including your guides, and the agency’s contact details—or even your guides’ names?

Did you have it from the port exit? Where can you pick it up just for the desert?

Regarding food, were the military self-sufficient?

J.Paul

Hi Dom,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Could you confirm that if we stick to the tarmac, we don’t need an agency? If that’s the case, we could do Alexandria-Siwa WITHOUT an agency, then hire a guide and the military to cross the Libyan Desert and the Great Sand Sea.

I’m also contacting this agency, ZARZORA—plus, they’re based in DAKHLA, so they must have a great knowledge of the south, like the Gilf Kebir.

But I think it’s possible the agency handles the CPD. Some hotels offered me this deal for 100 euros. Now, below the 23°N line, you also have to take military officers. And it’s getting more and more expensive.

Thanks in advance! @+

Good evening

Could you confirm that if we stick to the tarmac, we don’t need an agency?

As long as you stay on the asphalt, no need for an agency, guide, or military—it’s true 😉

If that’s the case, we could do Alexandria-Siwa WITHOUT an agency, then hire a guide and military for the Libyan Desert and the Great Sand Sea.

You can do: - Alexandria ==> Marsa Matrouh - Marsa Matrouh ==> Siwa (end of the "black-top") - Siwa ==> Bahariya .... (with a guide—watch out for quicksand ...) I’m certain about this, but as far as I know, the "Gilf El Kebir" is accessed from the south since the significant sites are in that region. That’s why routes often go from Dakhla/Dakhla. The logistics for covering the entire route, i.e., Siwa <==> Dakhla, are massive: fuel, gasoline, water, and catering convoys—practically one support vehicle for every two tourist vehicles.

Let’s be clear: - The Great Sand Sea or "Bahr ar Ramla el Kabir" is in the Libyan Desert - The "Gilf el Kébir" is the southern part of it

I’m contacting this ZARZORA agency—plus, they’re based in DAKHLA, so they must have great knowledge of the south, like the Gilf Kébir.

ZARZORA is "THE SPECIALIST" for the Gilf el Kébir, and they have a solid reputation. WATCH OUT for "shady operators"—there are more sharks in this "Sand Sea" than in the Red Sea 😇 They’re certainly not the cheapest, but you won’t be disappointed. They organize expeditions crossing the desert on a north-south axis on demand, but this isn’t a 10-day—or even 15-day—stroll 😛 On this route, there’s no full east or west passage—you exit north or south 😉 NOTHING IN THE MIDDLE ...

But I think it’s possible the agency handles the CPD—I’ve had hotels offer me this deal for 100 euros.

Yeah, and the marmot wraps the aluminum foil ... 😛 Review all the discussions about crossing without a CPD in Egypt and draw your own conclusions 🙁 I warned travelers going to Syria to get their visa from their home country because, sooner or later, the trick would backfire. Many replied, "No need—they accept it at the border." Lately, those without visas had to cut their trips short because they were turned away. Even in Turkey, visas were denied ... 100 € is a "steal" ... if you get in 😛 With all the tricks I know, I don’t have a better deal—far from it 😉 But I wouldn’t be surprised if I hear about your troubles someday if you tempt fate ... 😛

Now, below 23° N, you have to take military officers. And it’s getting more and more expensive.

This is the result of the recklessness of some "tourists" (two years ago ...) who bribed their guide and the poor "sucker" of a military escort to make a 5 km detour to visit a cave with paintings—but in SUDANESE TERRITORY 😛 THEN, IN ALL THE MEDIA, INCLUDING IN EUROPE, OUTRAGE OVER THE "HOLD-UP" OF TOURISTS 😛 ... no, just "busted" by the Sudanese regular army. But ... major upheaval at all levels, and now, we’re reaping what was sown ... 🙁

Hi,

ZARZORA is "THE SPECIALIST" of Gilf el Kebir, and they have a well-established reputation. BEWARE of "sharks"—there are more in this "Sea of Sand" than in the "Red Sea"

Are there still people who do this kind of tour? Does this agency still exist?

hi DJamila

as far as I know, the situation in "Al Wadi al Jadid" still isn’t really stable I got back from Egypt in early 2016, and only local tourism has picked up a bit I have Egyptian friends from Cairo who went on a bus trip to "Dakhla" ... with an escort 😛 they stayed at ...?? (a hotel run by ZARZORA) which used to be a really lovely hotel on the edge of the Dakhla Oasis, but they were a bit disappointed by the lack of upkeep (due to the lack of income ...) at the place I’d visited back in 2008 - no working jacuzzi, no massages from Asian staff, and no excursions were offered for a trip to "Gilf Kebir" - the management (owners I knew) had even changed same slump in "Al-Bahariya"/"Farafra", etc. Since I can’t take my 4x4 to Egypt at a reasonable cost anymore, I don’t go back to the desert to visit my friends of ... 30 years—I used to hang out there in 1985, and I’d go almost every year for a trip sorry for the not-so-great news

Hi again or good evening Dominique,

Thanks for the feedback. I’m not planning a trip there at the moment, but who knows—maybe in two years if things have improved, it’d be my first time in a Maghreb country. Until then, I’ll read up on the local customs.

I saw the photos of the different parts of the desert, and I really like them. I’ll keep the agency’s name in my favorites, and if the situation improves, it’d be great to explore deserts other than those in the Americas.

Have a good evening.

Hey hey Diamina ... sorry, I had written Djamila ... "beautiful" in Arabic, which is also a very pretty name for a woman.

QUITE HONESTLY, the situation has improved significantly. We’re residents in France but also in Egypt—we live in Cairo and near Alexandria by the sea, so we drive between these two cities ... Back in 2011/12/13, I wouldn’t go anywhere without a gun in the glove compartment, but things have changed. It’s not as safe as it was before the revolution, and I think those days are gone for good. Like in France, we’ll have to deal with criminal acts by religious fundamentalists before it’s completely eradicated ... there’s still a long way to go 🤪.

On the other hand, the Sinai is still off-limits—at least inland. Sharm el-Sheikh is still doable, but that’s about it (and you’d have to fly there; no way you’re driving 🏴‍☠️).

But right now, you can totally treat yourself to Nile cruises—the prices are super attractive, security is top-notch, the sites aren’t overrun with hordes of tourists, and you’re pretty safe 😉. Just remember, there’s no such thing as "zero risk" 😛

Hi Dominique,

No problem with the misspelling of my name—I’m used to it, it happens all the time!!!!

About Egypt, I don’t think a cruise is my kind of trip, whether on the Nile or elsewhere. I love traveling through desert landscapes (among other things). But anyway, I already have my travel plans set for this year and next. In two years, we’ll see.

Thanks so much for all the info. As a non-Muslim woman, can I wear pants and a short-sleeved T-shirt without a veil in Egypt?

Hi again Dominique, ..snip... When you're a non-Muslim woman, can you wear pants and a short-sleeved T-shirt without a veil in Egypt?

Back at ya... with a bit of a delay, but I promise you a relevant and thorough answer! - You mentioned not being a Muslim woman... ouch... well, nobody's perfect

😉 Just kidding! You should know that Egypt is completely different from Iran or Saudi Arabia when it comes to women. Around 18% of Egypt’s population is Orthodox Christian... the Copts, so you’ll find shops selling alcoholic drinks (the local wine isn’t bad), as well as pork, which is honestly pretty gross. So the country isn’t strict in general (we’ll get to exceptions later). - The veil isn’t mandatory, even for Muslim women, but a scarf can protect you from sand or dust if you plan to spend a few nights under the stars in the desert—an experience you absolutely must try, preferably not in a tent but with your head under the stars... that’s how I do it . - For the upper body: a blouse or T-shirt... but NOT tight-fitting, loose 😉 with no plunging "pigeon-chest" neckline, and worn *over* your skirt or pants, not tucked in. Sleeves should be mid-length to long—avoid tank tops. - For the lower body: a long gypsy-style skirt or jeans that aren’t *too* tight 😛, though the blouse or T-shirt will help since it covers the "curvier" parts of your anatomy 🙂. - Shoes: obviously, whatever you want, but no heels.

You’d like to spend time in the deserts because they’re not all the same—between the White Desert, the Black Desert, the Great Sand Sea (El Kébir), the Libyan Desert, and the Sinai (which makes up 95% of the country’s territory). The population is mostly Bedouin, practicing a stricter form of Islam than in cities. Out of respect for them, I’d recommend loose clothing... but not like a "sack." - You should also go for light makeup—avoid anything too provocative; I don’t need to tell you *how*. I’m attaching two photos of a Muslim woman of Bedouin origin who follows religious customs—she’s modest, and I know her very well 😛... she’s my wife! - In the (White) desert: just a cap and loose clothing (with one of her nephews and me). - In a city near Alexandria: a scarf and, again, loose clothing that doesn’t hide her femininity 😉.

If you need any more clarifications, don’t hesitate 😉

PS: I know a trustworthy guide (she’s from the same tribe as my wife). She can find you a driver/guide/cook with a 4x4 who’ll be reliable in every way... as soon as the situation is right, in about a year or two.

Hi Dominique,

Thanks for your replies, and since my trip isn’t happening right away, you can take your time getting back to me.

when you're not a Muslim woman, you say... ouch ouch... well, nobody's perfect

LOL!! 😏 What can I say? I’m all about freedom, and religions—whatever they are—go against my idea of liberty!!! Though I don’t drink alcohol, so does that make up for it?

your wish would be to spend time in the deserts, since they’re not all the same; between the "white," the "black," the "el Kébir," the "Libyan," not to mention the "Sinai" (making up 95% of the territory), the population is mostly Bedouin, practicing a stricter form of Islam than in the cities. That’s why, out of respect for them, I’d advise you to wear loose clothing... without it looking like a "sack"

Your wife’s travel outfit is exactly my style: a T-shirt with sleeves to the elbow (is that okay?)+ jeans or pants, with the T-shirt tucked over the waistband. No makeup as usual, trekking shoes so no heels, no low-cut tops—it’s totally me when I travel!! I’ll wear a scarf to protect myself from the sand in the desert, though!!!!

I hate the heat, so going in winter (February 2017 or 2018, for example) would be a good option, right?

ps/ just so you know, I have a guide I trust (she’s from the same tribe as my wife). She can find you a driver/guide/cook with a 4x4 who’ll also be completely reliable... as soon as the situation is right, in about a year or two

Uh, 🤪 I’ve got another big flaw (I know, I’ve got a lot!!!😏): I don’t speak or understand Arabic. There’s an expression I really like: "Be patient, God isn’t finished with me yet!" Does the guide you’re suggesting speak English? See, I’m not even asking if she speaks French. I’m making an effort, you see!!!😉

See you soon.

You can still visit the Moroccan desert. And do it as a self-drive trip.

(For dress in Egypt, it’s up to you. I always dressed the same way there as anywhere else, out of respect for the women and men who have to endure their neighbors' rules.)

hey Tila,

You can still visit the Moroccan desert

I don’t have any ideas about Morocco since I haven’t considered it yet. If you have any names to share, let me know. Otherwise, I’ll look into it. Is self-drive possible even though I don’t speak Arabic?

You speak French, you speak English?

That should work fine.

Otherwise, depending on the places, Berber might be way more useful than Moroccan Arabic.

The Maghreb is Amazigh land before being Arab.

Another story of colonization.

You’ll find plenty of topics about southern Morocco on this forum.

You speak French, you speak English?

I'm trying!!!!

Otherwise, depending on the places, Berber could be much more useful to you than Moroccan Arabic

Oh no, I don’t speak Berber either..... I know, I’m stacking up the fails...

The Maghreb is Amazigh land before being Arab. Another story of colonization. You’ll find plenty of topics on southern Morocco on this forum.

I’ll read and dig around to get an idea.

Thanks for the tip.

Hi Dominique, ..snip... I can't stand the heat, so going in winter (February 2017 or 2018, for example) would be a good alternative, right? *******

- WARNING ... in winter, evenings and especially nights are cold, sometimes approaching freezing 🤪 Avoid the months of December, January, February, March ... because of the cold The best times are: October, November, "early" December (until around the 15th), then from around March 15th, April, May, mid-June it starts to get hot Take note that there are "ONLY" ... two (2) seasons in Egypt: the cold one and the hot one. The ± temperate periods are the ones I mentioned to you ******** ps/ I know a trustworthy guide for you (she’s from the same tribe as my wife)..snip... Oh, 🤪 I’ve got another big flaw (I know, I’m piling them up!!!😏): I don’t speak or understand Arabic. There’s an expression I really like: "Be patient, God isn’t finished with me yet!"

********* Give Him time, and in His immense goodness, put all your hopes 😉 Just kidding ... refer to what I wrote in my first post ... "nobody's ...."

********* Does the guide you’re suggesting speak English? You see, I’m not even asking if she speaks French. I’m making an effort, you see!!!😉

********* Better than that, she speaks: French (almost like you and me, educated in the French system), but also "absolutely fluent in English", and she speaks Italian too You don’t speak Arabic, you say, but consider that others might have a more complete education 😛 and speak ± well—it’s true—other languages besides their native one 😉 Of the two Bedouin women I mentioned, mine 😏 has a sociology degree and graduated from the American University in Cairo, - The other woman, the guide, graduated from the Faculty of Tourism and Hospitality, guide section, with a license from the Ministry of Tourism in 1988—Alexandria University. Despite all that, when in 2010 we "nomadized" from France, Central Europe, Turkey ... Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan it was tough, Between the two of us, we speak 3 languages fluently (Fr., Eng., Arabic), but not "Farsi", nor "Turkmen", not even Uzbek, let alone Russian ... 😛 And yet, we managed 😉 You’ll do the same, and like me, you’ll learn Arabic 😏

Attachment: "Arch in White Desert - Egypt"—that’s me and my 4x4 in 2010

Hey Dominique,

Your reply was so refreshing and gave my husband and me a good laugh. 😏😎😄 Thanks, I got my dose of laughter today thanks to you!!!!!

ATTENTION... in winter, evenings and especially nights are cold, sometimes approaching Ø

You say it gets close to 0°C but stays above? Pfft, that’s nothing! This year, I’m spending a few days in the Andean highlands between Argentina and Chile, and the expected temperatures in the middle of the austral winter—between July and August—drop to around -15°C at night!! With heating in the rooms, maybe we’ll manage to get above 0°C!!

The problem is, if I prioritize April or March (Easter break) for Egypt, I risk daytime temps exceeding 30°C! No way—I already have that at home!! 😠

You don’t speak Arabic, you say, but consider that others might have a more complete education 😛 and speak ± well, it’s true, other languages besides their native one 😉

That had me in stitches!!! 😄

Imagine, sir, I’m multilingual: Creole (ever heard of it?), French (just the basics), English (well), Spanish (pretty well), then Franglais (fluently), and *banana French* (very well)... !😄😏

You’ll do the same, and like me, you’ll learn Arabic

Now you’re cheating a bit!! My husband doesn’t speak Arabic either... 🤪

Turkey... Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan tough, Between us, we speak 3 languages fluently (Fr, Eng, Arabic), but not Farsi, Turkmen, Uzbek, let alone Russian... 😛 And yet, we managed

Maybe Creole would’ve worked? Who knows!! Luck, I guess...

"Arch in White Desert - Egypt"—that’s me and my 4x4 in 2010

Back off, Satan—it’s cruel to tempt people like that!!

Anyway, Dominique, when I get back from my South America trip, I’ll post photos of the most beautiful places I visit. In the meantime, here’s a little link to the ones we discovered four years ago during our trip between Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile.

See you soon for more of your jokes!! 😏

Hi Dominique,

Wishing you all the best for 2019. Are you still active on VF? I saw your last login was in 2017. I’d love to get some updated info on desert tours in Egypt.