Why do we always think that "ELSEWHERE" is better than our own country? (page 18 of 23)

Indeed, the latest posts have spiraled into political rants and controversies that have nothing to do with the original question—Notre Dame des Landes, etc.—.

Poor little privileged French folks 😏... Meanwhile, the average Bangladeshi or Guatemalan just has enough to eat and rides overcrowded buses 😄

What’s the connection?

Hello,

To refocus the discussion on the topic and accommodate everyone’s rainy constraints during this dreary, damp winter, I suggest we clarify the question:

Why is this tendency to see the grass as greener elsewhere so French? What does it stem from? A cultural atavism, a worldview, a type of society?...

Michel

Hello. Thank you for picking up the thread I started, Jupiteria. The French often take pride in defending their little patch of land, their region, their country, etc., believing—somewhat vainly—that the advantages of this societal structure will make their lives better, though not necessarily more enthusiastic, as we all know.

I’d like to move past the clichés and narrow-minded views of those who, too grounded in reality, only consider the purely material and profitable side of a DESIRE FOR ELSEWHERE. Let’s get back to what truly matters, but from a completely different perspective—one that suggests this ELSEWHERE could be a return to our roots, a stripping away of the self, a conscious way of living that recognizes the importance of what’s essential for the survival of the hu…man… species!!!! After all, we’ve come to understand the futility and absurdity of all the psychological prisons we’ve built, which are supposedly leading us to a "successful" life… yet few are truly convinced or convincing about this ideology when HUMANS NATURALLY IGNORE ONE ANOTHER in the most basic ways—starving, destroying, exploiting each other in a dizzying system designed for the wealth of a few! France or not France, it’s the same everywhere!

So yes! It’s a challenge to broaden our horizons in search of "something better elsewhere." By that, I mean countries where modernism and egocentrism haven’t yet corrupted people and cities—places where, though we might be poorer, we’d be freer in our minds. Where respect, simplicity, and sharing complete the circle in wonderful glances and smiles, even if we still have to go about our daily tasks, but with a lighter heart. Yes, I cling to this idea of elsewhere, even knowing they’ll envy me for having known France… and yet, I’d tell them that the sweetness of life isn’t where they think it is, that true values are found and passed on through authenticity, and that materialism has sown bad seeds.

Ah! What a utopia you must think… and how I understand you… but green grass—or less green grass—grows everywhere ELSEWHERE… and I’ll be content with little as long as I’m free. To wrap up, thousands of French people leave and live abroad, never to return! We’d love to hear from them on this forum.

Hello,

But precisely... You’re touching on one of the many harmful consequences of centralism and Jacobinism. In no other modern European country are teachers "assigned" a thousand kilometers from home, like pawns in some kind of army. It’s no wonder this institution is struggling, that people are often deeply unhappy there, and that its efficiency is questionable.

Most French people don’t realize the authoritarian, dirigiste, even militaristic tradition of France. You either thrive in the shadow of the central state, under its supposedly protective wing, or you don’t thrive at all. Many people take civil service exams without fully understanding—out of ignorance, or because hearing things repeatedly makes them seem natural and true—and then struggle to "escape" the system when nothing works... I wouldn’t be telling you anything new if I said that in these situations, you don’t even have the right to resign... 🤪

And that brings us back to the topic of this discussion: the grass seems greener "elsewhere" because it’s freer. Because elsewhere, you live with fewer guarantees, protections, and safety nets, but with more freedom. Few countries in the world—China, maybe—have societal, everyday life, moral, free speech, and religious issues so tightly controlled by the state, a state that’s also centralized and monopolistic. Yesterday, I came across a France Culture program (it’s related to my work, so I’m looking into it a bit... 🙂) about the Estates General of Bioethics. The professor on the show set the context: "First, there’s a uniquely French characteristic: entrusting social changes to the law. No other country has such an extensive body of bioethics laws, so it’s extremely interesting, and we must adapt to it." He acknowledges the situation, doesn’t question it, and accepts it. That said, you’re not obligated to feel comfortable in a context—almost unique in the world—where the state regulates everything, including what could perfectly well be left to personal freedom, cultures, or religions, all within an ever-growing legislative framework and now with media hype. In the same vein, the previous five-year term got lost trying to impose the universality (that word always makes me laugh when it comes from the French state—we’re seeing the same thing now with the "national service" for young people, billed as "universal," no less 🤪...) of a 19th-century bourgeois tradition: marriage. Instead of simply giving everyone freedom on a minimal basis.

Michel

Just so you know, Breton teachers and others assigned to eastern France all arrive with long faces. The east is ugly, cold, and people speak strangely. Sure, you’re close to borders, German airports, at the heart of Europe, and all that, but according to them, after comparisons, Brittany isn’t far from paradise, and all they want is to go back.

Hello,

To refocus the discussion on the topic and accommodate everyone’s rainy constraints during this dreary, damp winter, I suggest clarifying the question:

Why is this tendency to see the grass as greener elsewhere so distinctly French? What does it stem from? A cultural atavism, a worldview, a type of society?...

Ciao,

Well... I’ll answer... since I’m one of those who went off to wander elsewhere. 🙂

What I found nearly unbearable when I lived in France was the tendency there to spin stories about itself. Here’s a very concrete example, taken from this morning’s press: "Macron, the lonely leader of a convalescent Europe" (Le Monde). Oh, how beautiful solitary heroes are! France is a country that constantly generates its own myth. And I don’t like grandiose myths. The wry fatalism of my adopted country suits me infinitely better.

Have a cold, dry Sunday.

Catherine

On May 16, 2013, Jeanbrfr gave a beautiful response to Jupiteria: "... it seems to me that elsewhere is what we don’t know and what is often wonderful." That’s exactly what the nearly 18 pages that followed Jupiteria’s original post *shouldn’t* have been about. Frankly, it’d be great if we could stop cluttering the forum with metaphysics and exegeses that don’t belong here—other than to annoy fellow members who just dream of travel, discovery, and MEETING OTHERS. And there’s plenty to discuss, share, and appreciate there. So, let’s keep that in mind...

But before wrapping up, I’d like to revisit something only briefly touched on by a few: solidarity. A dear friend of mine suffers from painful neuromotor disorders. Just before last Christmas, he wanted to do some shopping when a paralyzing episode left him collapsed on the floor of a hypermarket’s entrance hall. Not a single person helped him up, and some even let their venom show: "Unbelievable, already wasted at this hour!" Fortunately, the episode was short, and he managed to get up on his own. This makes you think—especially since this friend was a volunteer firefighter, serving the community for over forty years!!!

On top of that, when he had to go to Paris for a consultation at the end of January, no one offered to accompany him. I told him we’d go together in my car. Vietalier

Hello Catherine,

The other evening, while listening to French state radio, I had a similar thought. They were discussing the Estates General on Bioethics—this really is my topic—and surrogacy. A renowned professor, a scientist, shared his reservations based on his own principles, which are absolutely respectable. At the end of the professor’s few sentences, the presenter of this "news" segment felt the need to add: "Emmanuel Macron, by the way, is also opposed to surrogacy." As if, in this case, that had the slightest importance.

Have a good day, with endless drizzle.

Michel

Hello,

To refocus the discussion on the topic and accommodate everyone’s rainy constraints during this dreary, damp winter, I suggest clarifying the question:

Why is this tendency to think the grass is greener elsewhere so French? What does it stem from? A cultural trait, a worldview, a type of society?...

Ciao,

Well... I’ll respond... since I’m one of those who went off to wander elsewhere. 🙂

What I found almost unbearable when I lived in France was the tendency there to spin stories about itself. Here’s a very concrete example, taken from this morning’s press: "Macron, the lonely leader of a convalescent Europe" (Le Monde). Oh, how noble solitary heroes are! France is a country that constantly generates its own myth. And I don’t like grand, self-important myths. The cheeky fatalism of my adopted country suits me much better.

Have a cold, dry Sunday.

Catherine

Who is deprived of a gateway to Europe?

Auvergne. 🙂

But never mind, the only true die-hard Gauls (well, almost...) are them.

Well, I admit I’m not too sure where Auvergne is... 🙂 But it seems like it has air transport options in all four directions. How many hours is the drive to Lyon Airport, for example?

Michel

Who’s cut off from Europe’s gateways?

Auvergne. 🙂

But never mind—those die-hard Gauls (well, almost...) are the real deal.😄

In no modern European country are teachers "assigned" a thousand kilometers from home, like pawns in some kind of army.

It’s not just teachers. All civil servants are in the same boat.

Afterwards, some are quite happy to find a foolproof excuse to discover France.

The problem for Bretons is being over-qualified compared to the average, so they pass civil service exams more easily. Few elected officials in the 93, but lots of positions to fill. Lots of elected officials in the 29, but few positions.

What to do? Territorial exams? The best for the best and the less good for the less good? Not very egalitarian all that...

Then you could imagine decentralizing services other than education to where civil servants want to go. But you’d end up with an even emptier France than it already is, with on one side Brittany (many locals quite attached) and on the other the southern regions near the coasts and urban centers (appeal of sun and supposedly better quality of life).

No chance for the 93, the Ardennes, the Marne, the Meuse, the Creuse, etc...

How many hours’ drive to Lyon airport, for example?

Before or after the snowplow passes? Free or paid? And without a license or a car, what do I do?

Without a license or a car, if it's like in Brittany, you're stuck at home; it's impossible to get a job without having a car and a license. Of course, you have to pay for it. Let’s take a resident near Quimper, for example. Nantes is at least a 2.5-hour drive, Paris around 6 hours. We can compare everything if you want, no problem. Besides, I don’t see how the fact that people in Auvergne are isolated could justify others being almost as badly off. I don’t know if I should add that Brittany is at least three times more populated than Auvergne.

Michel

What to do? Territorial competitions?

.. I don’t know... Maybe understanding that most of the positions in question shouldn’t fall under a state-run civil service managed like the military? Recruiting by region, obviously, is the least we could do. The French obsession with the state, with civil service, with being taken care of and assigned a lifelong mission. Honestly, I don’t really get the plan.

Michel

The point?

The point is really simple to understand—or maybe I didn’t explain myself well. French people whine nonstop with their mouths full, while there are tons of people living in misery around the world. I don’t want to sound like I’m pitying anyone, but just think about what a migrant fleeing a war-torn country (like Syria or Libya) has to endure.

Recruiting by region, obviously, is the least one could do.

That would be a good solution, yes. However, I’d venture to say that the central state—basically the French state (as opposed to local authorities)—doesn’t want to because there have been too many abuses in the past: financial mismanagement, local authorities spending central government transfers without restraint... I think that’s the main reason the housing tax was scrapped.

No contest, Macron wants to regain control of all that. Some local authorities took out "toxic" loans before the 2008 crisis (particularly with Natixis, to name names) and were in financial trouble not so long ago.

Hello,

It seems to me that France and its central state don’t need anyone else to dig financial black holes—though, admittedly, voters have repeatedly approved this since... well, forever. Treating non-Parisians like minors under guardianship is a classic move.

Michel

Hiring by region, of course, is the very least that should be done.

That would be a good solution, yes. However, I’d venture to say that the central state—basically, the French state (as opposed to local authorities)—doesn’t want to because there have been too many abuses in the past: financial mismanagement, local authorities spending state transfers without restraint... I think that’s the main reason behind the elimination of the housing tax. No question about it—Macron wants to regain control of all that. Some local authorities took out "toxic" loans before the 2008 crisis (particularly with Natixis, no need to name names) and were in financial trouble not so long ago.

It's impossible to get a job without having a car and a driver's license.

Well, yeah, as a civil servant. You don’t need a car or a license to work in the 93!

Imagine a resident from the Quimper area, for example. Nantes is at least a 2h30 drive away.

Peanuts for people living in a mountainous region with no highways... Aren’t your Bretons a bit spoiled?

That would be a good solution, yes.

That’s the solution adopted for the competitive exam for primary school teachers.

Result: a hyper-selective exam in regions like Brittany and an almost guaranteed pass in the Paris area.

In short, Bretons take the exam in the Paris area to be sure of passing, then complain about having to stay there for a long time.😏

Regional exams are just a band-aid on a wooden leg.

Recruiting by region, of course, is the very least one can do.

Well, no... And then "Brittany for the Bretons"—that eerily echoes the slogan of one of this region’s unfortunately more nationally prominent political figures.

Did I say that? I said that the idea of enlisting people with quasi-military status to parachute them anywhere, then moving them around like pawns under the pretext of unifying the nation was an outdated idea—one that no one in Europe supports or shares, in any case. We’re seeing the results: a total collapse in education, depression and resignations at every level, to the point that if things keep going like this, we’ll have to stop classes on Thursday evenings because there won’t be enough staff to make it through the week. We can keep pushing a model that’s completely exhausted and ill-suited to today’s world, or we can have the wisdom to let go of universalist pretensions and stop believing we’re the only ones standing tall, right, and proud in the face of the whole world.

Michel

Nope... And then there’s "Brittany for the Bretons," which eerily echoes the slogan of one of this region’s unfortunately more nationally prominent political figures.

I don’t think so. It’s true that compared to Ireland, which is similar in size and geographical location, they lost out in the game of history. Few people can place Auvergne on a map, though. 🙂

Michel

Peanuts for the inhabitants of a mountainous region without motorways... Aren’t your Bretons a bit spoiled?😄