What to choose for a first summer trip to Asia: Indonesia or Thailand? (page 2 of 5)

More monitored customs in Thailand? I’m curious...

For example, lèse-majesté is a crime. Anyone, Thai or not, intentionally or not, who speaks or acts negatively toward the royal family (current or past) or its image can end up in prison for several years. Keep in mind that Thais have a strong culture of reporting—you won’t have any friends left if you criticize the royal family...

A few examples of how you can get into trouble: - Looking at a photo of the king (they’re absolutely everywhere, inside all kinds of buildings, including private ones, and outside) with a mocking or condescending expression, or pointing at it. - Asking, even innocently, why the princess (one of the late king’s daughters) isn’t married or why some other family member conveniently died in the tsunami. Generally, avoid "nosy" or "leading" questions. - Stepping on a banknote or poking a hole in it to make a stack—because, guess what, the king’s face is on it (though you can still handle money normally; no need to kneel with your hands clasped above your head before using it...).

In general, to avoid any missteps, **never** bring up the "royal family" in any way while you’re there. Unless it’s to flatter them—but make sure you get the approach right.

Things that don’t directly concern you but exist: - Schoolchildren who, every morning at 8 AM from the age of 6, are gathered in a near-military stance before class to be drilled all year about how the king and his family are good and beyond criticism, how Thailand is basically the only great place to live, by far... And a few other nonsense ideas of the same kind, always backed by arguments we’d find questionable. Every. Single. Day.

- Civil servants who are frowned upon by their superiors if they travel abroad during their vacations: they already live in such a wonderful country, so why the need to see elsewhere? Plus, they’re at the country’s service even on holiday—it’s their duty (I sound sarcastic, but in Thailand, a civil servant *can* actually be called in to work during their leave, and they’d better have a very good reason to refuse).

- Women who smoke are seen as... well, you can imagine.

- People with physical or mental disabilities are often kept out of sight; it’s considered shameful to bring them out in public. In shopping malls, the free wheelchairs aren’t for them—they’re for the elderly so they don’t get tired while spending money.

Here’s the 8 AM assembly at Tha Song Yang school:

True, it’s not dull!

On one hand, I agree with Attila in the sense that if you don’t live in the country, you can easily (pretend to) ignore these little horrors and enjoy the change of scenery with a selfishly naive tourist mindset—whether we like it or not, that’s what we are.

On the other hand, I also think there’s a tendency these days to demonize everything related to Islam, while you don’t have to look to Muslim countries for examples of the worst human rights violations (which, by the way, seem to be on the rise in Western countries too...).

In reply to this message from Songsam:

More monitored customs in Thailand? I’m curious...

For example, the crime of lèse-majesté exists. Anyone, Thai or not, intentionally or not, who speaks or acts negatively toward the royal family (current or past) or its image can end up in prison for several years. On that note, don’t forget that Thais have a strong sense of snitching—you won’t have any friends left if you criticize the royal family... A few examples where you can get into trouble: - Looking at a photo of the king (they’re absolutely everywhere, both inside all kinds of buildings, including private ones, and outside) with a mocking or condescending expression, or pointing at it. - Asking, even innocently, why the princess (one of the former king’s daughters) isn’t married or why some other family member conveniently died in the tsunami. Generally, avoid asking "indiscreet" or "leading" questions. - Stepping on a banknote or poking a hole in it to make a stack because—guess what—the king’s image is on it (but you can still handle money normally, no need to kneel with your hands joined above your head before using it...).

Generally, to avoid any blunders, never bring up the "royal family" topic in any way while you’re there. Unless it’s to flatter them, but make sure you get the approach right.

Things that don’t directly concern you but exist: - Schoolchildren who, every morning at 8 a.m. from the age of 6, are gathered in a near-military stance before class to be drilled all year about how the king and his family are good and beyond criticism, how Thailand is basically the only country worth living in, by far... And a few other bits of nonsense along the same lines, always backed by arguments we’d consider dubious. Every. Single. Day.

- Civil servants who are frowned upon by their superiors if they travel abroad during their leave: they already live in such a wonderful country, so why the need to see elsewhere? And anyway, they’re at the country’s service even on vacation—it’s their duty (I sound sarcastic, but in Thailand, a civil servant can actually be called to work during their leave, and it’s best to have a very good reason to refuse).

- Women who smoke being seen as *insert derogatory term here*

- People with physical or mental disabilities who are discouraged from leaving the house—it’s probably too shameful. In shopping malls, the free wheelchairs aren’t for them but for the elderly so they don’t get tired while spending money.

All these "hassles" are, let’s say, common in many Asian countries. Few actually escape them—not Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam, or Cambodia... But it rarely affects foreign tourists.

which we currently tend to demonize everything related to Islam,

Islamists aren’t helping...

And the French have fought against the Catholic religion and have almost succeeded in getting rid of it. It’s not to see a new head of the hydra emerge.

Living in a Muslim country, for an atheist, is a bit like living in a mental prison.

It’s impossible to be yourself there.

As a tourist, this mental prison only lasts a few moments. The other benefits of travel make the pill easier to swallow.

For the unfortunate atheists in Indonesia, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, or Malaysia, it’s another story. All they have left are social networks to connect with people who think like them.

Personally, I’d choose exile.

When it comes to flight tickets, it's essential to have the main outline of your trip planned before booking them. This way, you can buy an open-jaw ticket and save yourself a lot of fatigue.

Let’s say I decide to land in Jakarta, travel to Yogyakarta, then fly to Flores, and on the way back, spend 2 nights in Singapore or Bangkok as you suggest: which flights should I book and how? (In advance or on the spot? With one airline or several?)

Let's say I decide to land in Jakarta and go to Yogyakarta

To clarify for the answer: would you travel from Jakarta to Yogyakarta, or take a direct route?

Flores isn’t the most internationally connected island.

Kuala Lumpur is currently the only alternative, and it’s not a very exciting one.

That’d mean a Belgium–Jakarta round trip via Kuala Lumpur–Belgium.

A domestic flight from Surabaya to Labuan Bajo and another from Labuan Bajo to Kuala Lumpur.

Another domestic flight on Flores itself seems essential given how slow the overland trips are and the current lack of inter-island flights to Maumere or Ende.

This site is useful for checking direct flight options: flightconnections.com

Book in advance! !

I don’t know yet, but let’s say I won’t linger in Jakarta. Let’s also say I want to start my trip in Flores and finish in Java.

I don’t know yet, but let’s say I don’t linger in Jakarta. Let’s also say I want to start my trip in Flores and finish in Java.

Via Kuala Lumpur: Kuala Lumpur-Labuan Bajo (3x/week on AirAsia) Labuan Bajo-Maumere (3x/week on Wings Air) overland Labuan Bajo-Denpasar (6 to 9 daily flights on several airlines) overland Yogyakarta-Kuala Lumpur (twice daily on AirAsia, 2x/week on Malaysian)

- Visit the Labuan Bajo area on the first pass - Cross Flores from east to west in 12 to 16 days, depending on whether you want to do beaches and snorkeling. - Fly from Labuan Bajo to Denpasar rather than Surabaya since eastern Java has things to see, so it’ll be smarter to land in Bali and then continue by bus + ferry to Banyuwangi. The first flight from Labuan Bajo arrives in Denpasar at 9:55 AM (AirAsia), so you *could* connect straight to Banyuwangi, but that’d be a long travel day—better to spend a transit night in southern Bali. - Cross Java from Banyuwangi to Yogyakarta at a relaxed pace in 8 to 14 days, depending on the number of stops. - The two weekly flights from Yogyakarta to K.L. would let you book an intercontinental open-jaw ticket: Paris-K.L. outbound, Yogyakarta-Paris return, all on Malaysian. But I don’t think it’s worth it (Malaysian only flies to Paris twice a day from Europe, and just two weekly flights from Yogya to K.L. leave little timing flexibility). Might as well book a regular round-trip ticket from Europe to K.L.

I’ll come back later with an attempt at a Singapore option.

If you're starting with Flores, your entry point into Indonesia can't be Jakarta...

Jakarta as an entry or exit point is only worth it if you're crossing Java from west to east.

- crossing Java from Baniuwanggi to Yogyakarta at a relaxed pace in 8 to 14 days, depending on the number of stops

This is the "Bali" part of Java... But the idea was more about traveling a bit off the tourist trail.

That said, I preferred this part over the Yog to Bandung stretch... Though Lufthansa’s delays plus Idul Fitri played a big role in that.

Thanks so much!

I’ll need to tweak this draft a bit since my starting point is Brussels. It’s easier for me to leave Europe from Brussels or Amsterdam Schiphol (quick Eurostar train connection from Brussels).

Also, as Attila suggested, I’ll struggle to do layovers before or after a flight to/from Europe (KL, BKK, or SIN...) without stopping for 2 nights to let my daughter burn off some energy... (She’s amazing, but there are limits—like 15 hours of flying straight!)

Anyway, I’ve got a great framework to start my research.

I don’t know yet, but let’s say I don’t linger in Jakarta. Let’s also say I want to start my trip in Flores and finish in Java.

Via Singapore: Singapore-Lombok 4x/week on Scoot Lombok-Labuan Bajo daily on Wings Air (only in summer, it seems) Then, same as the Kuala Lumpur option above until Yogyakarta Yogyakarta-Singapore daily on Scoot

- In Lombok, the layover between the two flights on different airlines is only 40 minutes—way too short, so it’s better to plan an overnight transit there (the flight from SGP isn’t daily anyway) - Since Scoot is a subsidiary of Singapore Airlines, it’ll probably be possible to book an open-jaw ticket: Europe-Lombok outbound, Yogyakarta-Europe return. Singapore Airlines serves Brussels 4x/week, Amsterdam daily, and Paris twice daily.

But it was more about a trip a bit off the tourist trail.

In my suggestion, it’s not about visiting Bali but just spending one transit night there—or even none at all.

I’d struggle to do layovers before or after a flight to/from Europe (KL, BGK, or SGP...) without stopping for 2 nights to let my daughter burn off some energy...

All the options I’m suggesting via KL or SGP would allow for that.

I wanted to say that the eastern part of Java is like Bali—very touristy. (Kawa Ijen, Bromo, Yog)

I wanted to say that the Java part is like Bali, very touristy. (Kawa Ijen, Bromo, Yog)

He’s got to go somewhere anyway, and he’s already ruling out Bali and Lombok*, which isn’t bad...

* which, however, isn’t that touristy once you leave the beaches.

There are as many possibilities as there are Indonesian islands...😉

There are as many possibilities as there are Indonesian islands...😉

For now, he hasn’t said for sure which country will be the destination, especially since in Asia there’s more than just Thailand and Indonesia. Plus, he still has plenty of time to think about it...

4 favorite spots in Indonesia: Toraja country in Sulawesi. It's a shame that nowadays, like everywhere in Asia, corrugated iron has replaced palm leaves on the roofs of houses. Total change of scenery. https://www.baliautrement.com/paystoraja.htm Nias Island off the coast of Sumatra. Same vibe. Siberut Island: Mentawai country. Same vibe. And of course, Bali! Even if over-tourism has really changed things.

With a child, I wouldn’t go to Siberut or Nias Island but to Makassar (in Sulawesi). From there, I’d take a bus to Rantepao and spend a few days there. There are plenty of interesting villages to visit in the surrounding area, and the region is stunning. After that, I’d finish my trip in Bali by taking a flight from Makassar to Denpasar.