Nous sommes un couple de 25 & 29 ans et nous partons cet été (du 4 au 25 juillet) en Indonésie pour 3 semaines.
Je prépare notre voyage et voici le circuit que j'ai élaboré.... J'aimerais avoir votre avis : manque-t-il des incontourables ? est-ce bien équilibré entre les différentes iles ? avez-vous des hotels à me conseiller à Jogyakarta, près du Bromo, à Ubud, à Gili Meno ? quelle compagnie pouvez-vous me conseiller pour faire Singapour - Yogykarta / Denpasar Singapour ? comment faire le transfert le plus rapide entre Bali & Lombok comment aller de Sengiggi au pied du Rinjani pour l'ascension
Bref un tas de questions !
Je sais que 3 semaines c'est un peu court mais nous avons l'habitude d'être très actifs pendant nos voyages.
J'ai déjà dû convaincre mon copain d'enlever Sumatra !!!
Ce que l'on souhaite voir : volcans, rizières, faire des treks, et également plage fariente à la fin ;-)
Dans les grandes lignes cela donne :
JAVA : 6 JOURS
BALI : 6 JOURS
LOMBOK + GILI : 8 JOURS
Voici le détail :
4-juil 16h09 Départ de Bruxelles - Paris
5-juil Arrivée à Singapour à 18h30
6-juil Départ tot de Singapour Joygakarata - Visite Borobudur
7-juil 1 jour Yogyakarta Prambanan
8-juil 2 jour Yorgykarata - Train pour Surabaya - route pour Bromo
9-juil Ascension du Bromo / Semeru
10-juil Ascension du Kjen Jen - le soir départ pour Ubud
11-juil Départ vers Bali en ferry - direction Ubud
12-juil Visite de Ubud
13-juil Visite de Ubud - Treeking (Yeh Pulu / Vallée Sungai Ayung)
14-juil Direction Nord Est Visite du Gunung Agung + rizieres tres belles + temple Pura Besakih
15-juil Montagnes du Nord Asension du Gunung Batur / Temple Danau Batran
16-juil Jatiluwith / Pura Luhur Ula Watu / Pura Luhur Batukau
17-juil Depuis Bali - rejoindre Senggigi
18-juil Hotel Quinci Villa
19-juil Gunung rinjani
20-juil Gunung rinjani
21-juil Iles Gili Meno
22-juil Iles Gili Meno
23-juil Iles Gili Meno
24-juil Iles Gili Meno
25-juil Départ de Denpasar - Singapour - Départ vers paris 22h
bonjour
je connais assez l'indonésie
et votre teaming sur java est un peu juste
= faire le bromo et le semeru le meme jour.... je doute
le bromo : il faut y être tres tot le matin ( 4h pour voir le lever du soleil qui est exeptionnel) et vous pourrez voir du bromo le semeru, çà veut dire lever 3h)
généralement il faut etre la veille au haut de la caldera( faites gaffe, le froid sous les tropiques est surprenant)
mais vous pourrez louer des manteaux sur place
à mon avis le semeru çà sera pour la prochaine fois
le kawa ijen : là par contre, tout dépend du temps, ce n'est pas la peine de venir de bonne heure
l'ascension est assez raide et fatiguante. mais ce qu'il faut faire : c'est descendre ( meme si c'est inscrit : interdit )jusqu'au bord du lac d'acide ( prevoir serviette, eau pour l'humidifier, lunettes de natation ) he oui, le gaz peut vous envelopper et là... aie, aie, aie.....prenez votre temps, en bas c'est exeptionnel....
quand vous etes au haut du volcan, arrangez vous avec un porteur afin qu'il vous acconpagne au fonds pour vous montrer son travail et les scultures
cette descente et remontée est terrible et vous souffrirez c'est sûr et certain
Je ne parlerai pas de ce que je n'ai pas vécu (Java), mais tout ceci me paraît un peu un timing à la 'japonaise' . Ceci dit :
comment faire le transfert le plus rapide entre Bali & Lombok : en avion...., mais il y avait un truc sympa en bateau (avec PERAMA) mais vu votre timing....
Votre choix d'hôtel le Quinci Villa est certainement très bien mais vu du type de voyage que vous allez accomplir je vous invite de jeter un oeil à Segara Villas( pour un budget moindre) à Batu Layar proche de Senggigi (voir mes commentaires et photos sur Tripadvisor).
Petit conseil (mais peut-être suis-je trop prudent) il serait sage de ne pas quitter Meno le dernier jour, j'en ai vu qui ont loupé leur avion.
Cordialement,
51dansleau
"Les dunes changent sous l'action du vent, mais le désert reste toujours le même." ("L'Alchimiste" - Paulo Coelho)
un timing à la jap en indonesie.... comme le dit le collègue....ç'est un peu risqué pour l'avion ( j'approuve )
n'oublions pas que nous sommes sous les cocotiers
les bateaux et autres moyens de transport ne sont pas forcement à l'heure ou à un jour près...
aujoud'hui peu être ou alors demain.. c'est leur devise...surtout pour les inter iles
si vous plongez alllez à permuteran et tulumben
nous retournons pour la 6em fois en indonésie fin juillet et nous n'avons reservé que sur gili trawangan au big bubble hotel
pour kuta, l'hotel kuta puri bungalow est impeccable et central
pour yoga à l'hotel "petit mas"
a senggigi au senggigi hotel à l'entree de la ville( superbe piscine verte)
Bonjour, c'est bien de decouvrir Lombok, mais ne vous limitez pas aux plages surfaites des Gilli's qui ressemblent a toutes les petites iles du monde type Maldives etc. Bon la vie nocturne y est sympa mais c'est vite bruyant. Preferez les plages de sable blanc d'une ampleur epoustouflante du Sud, de Kuta Lombok (Tanjung Aan, Mawin, Seklong Blanak et tant d'autres. On y surfe, nage, plinge, fait du cheval. On y decouvre une nature encore vierge alorsd que le nord est deja bien pollue par les touristes.
Mon programme www.balietlombok.canalblog.com Bon voyage
... sinon 1 jour a Gilli pour voir ça sufft et reste plus a ubud
Salut Michel ....
😕 ..... faut pas dire ça, c'est une ambiance les Gilis, et il faut y rester au moins trois à quatre jours et si c'est pas possible mieux vaut faire l'impasse je trouve .... aprés, d'accord que la côte Sud est hyper intéressante autour de Kuta, et pour ma part je m'arrange toujours pour faire les deux .... je suis fan de Lombok et des Gilis .... 🙂
Segara Villas .... trés bel endroit sur une colline, belle vue, jolie piscine, juste un bémol ..... le défaitisme des proprios quant à leurs relations avec les locaux ..... bien dommage, mais peut être ça s'arrangera avec le temps ....
Je suis en train d'organiser un voyage de noces-surprise en Indonésie (vraisemblablement Java + Bali + plage paradisiaque mais où??? Lombok???) pour août 2010, d'environ 18 jours. Je n'ai pas encore déterminé d'itinéraire mais commence à me renseigner.
Je suis un peu embêté car je voudrais terminer les vacances par des jours de farniente sur une plage idyllique (because voyage de noces), et comprend que les plages de Bali ne sont pas terribles...
J'attend vos conseils avec impatience. Merci d'avance.
PS: Vous n'auriez pas des conseils pour éviter la grande foule à Java et Bali?
Enlevez au moins un jour aux Gili 5trawagan....) pour le basculer sur Ubud
Et pour Jatiluwith (voir photo jointe) , c'est unhe nuit dans les montagnes avec le Bataku : sans Ulu Watu trop éloigné et si vous disposez de motos pour le moins !!
"Dans vos phrases, n'utilisez qu'un sujet, un verbe, un complément d"objet direct ; Quand vous aurez besoin d'un adjectif, venez me trouver." (Georges Clemenceau)
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Bonjour ,
nous sommes actuellement à Mai chau et demain nous reprenons la route pour Hanoi afin de monter vers Ba Ha et Sapa .
Pas vraiment de programme attitré depuis notre arrivée nous avons déjà fait la baie d'Halong terrestre et maritime.
J'ai 2 jours libres avant d'aller sur Bac Ha et Sapa .
Avez vous des conseils ?
Merci et au plaisir de vous lire .
Silly question—backpack or hard-shell suitcase for the Sepilok, Kinabatangan, Tioman, KL trip?
I’m struggling to fit all my son’s and my stuff into the 70L backpack... and I’m thinking a suitcase would be easier, but I’m not sure if it’ll work for getting around.
Hi fellow travelers,
First trip to Vietnam.
We’ll be arriving in Ho Chi Minh City during Tet.
Is it complicated to find accommodation and get around during this period?
Any tips would be welcome.
Thanks for your replies.
Hi there,
I didn’t plan to return to Thailand this year, but my health conditions mean it’ll be the best place for me to stay between two trips to India. The tourism setup there is so well-organized that it’s the most "comfortable" country for a short visit. Thailand feels too sanitized for my taste, and there’s too much religion, Buddha, and the King, but it’s still the best option given how my health has been evolving. I’d considered two weeks in ThaTon for hiking, but I got too sick from the burn-offs during my trips to the mountains around Chiang Rai. So I’m not sure where to go this year. Definitely not the sea, touristy spots, or the mountains with burn-offs...
Hello.
In 1996, we crossed Vietnam from Saigon to Hanoi by motorbike—Minsk bikes we bought in Saigon. I haven’t been back since, and it seems like a lot has changed.
- We’re heading to the south (well, the north and center) with the family in July-August (3 people).
- Is the road network more developed now? Back then, there was only National Route 1 from south to north. I’m thinking of renting a car this time (no motorbike with the family—though in ’96, they had a Jawa sidecar for sale, and we hesitated… maybe it’s for the best).
- Is Halong Bay really something to avoid because of overtourism? Even back then, it was pretty crowded. Is there a less touristy alternative?
- We’ll be traveling from Hanoi down to Danang (the only city we didn’t stop in back in ’96). Even though it’s a bit overhyped in a Chinese-tourist kind of way (from what I’ve read), we’re only going for the beach—pure relaxation for 7 days. The beaches are stunning, and I know the South China Sea is warm like coffee.
- Then, we’ll visit Hoi An, where I stopped in ’96. It was already popular with backpackers back then, but no glowing boats or all the touristy fuss!
- After that, Hue, where I have great memories—it’s a beautiful city.
- And also the nature around Ninh Binh, followed by 2-3 days in Hanoi.
That’s the plan. I’d love to hear any tips to avoid mass tourism, and if anyone’s done this before:
- Is it possible to rent a car in Danang and drop it off in Hanoi?
Hey everyone,
I’m over in East Borneo in mid-July.
I’m struggling to wrap up the end of my itinerary, even though it’s pretty straightforward (long but simple).
Last year, we did Malaysia (KL and the mainland + around Kuching).
Day 1 – Arrive in Kota Kinabalu early, stroll around town and hit the must-sees.
Day 2 – Excursion to Tunku Abdul Rahman Park, snorkeling at 3 islands.
Day 3 – Hike around Mount Kinabalu without summiting (450 per person, no way).
Day 4 – Poring Hot Springs + evening flight to Sandakan.
Day 5-6-7 – Kinabatangan River (still looking for the right guide).
Day 8 – Sepilok for the orangutans, the Sun Bear Centre, and Rainforest Discovery Centre.
Day 9 – Selingan, turtle island.
Day 10 – Head to Semporna.
Day 11-12-13-14 – Sipadan, Mabul, Kapalai.
Day 15 – Bohey Dulang.
Day 16 to Day 25: I’M STUCK.
I looked into Danum Valley, but for 3 days/2 nights, they’re quoting 650 € per person—come on, that’s ridiculous.
I checked out a detour into Indonesia (still East Borneo), but I’m having trouble deciding what would be amazing.
I read about Sangalaki + Kakaban (2 islands, 1 base) / Mahakam Delta - Kutai (orangutans and river) / Sungai Boh (Dayak Kayan) – jungle & culture.
But honestly, I’m struggling to finalize this itinerary.
If we venture that way, we’d head back to KK from Balikpapan.
For a 4-month stay in Egypt, I had ENORMOUS problems. The regulations are very bureaucratic and extremely nitpicky there. For a 4-month stay in the Philippines, I was wondering if the procedures are just as complicated? I’m bringing my cell phone with an eSIM. Should I choose a plan from Canada for use in the Philippines, or should I get a plan only once I arrive? After 30 days, do I renew with the Canadian provider I chose before leaving, or do I switch to a local company? Do I need to register my phone with the authorities in the Philippines? (That was the case in Egypt.) For the 3rd and 4th months, will it be just as simple—renewing with a Canadian or local provider—or should I expect problems?
Hello,
I’ll be in Malaysia with my wife, mainly in Langkawi and Penang for Christmas and New Year’s at the end of 2026.
If you’ve had the experience—and since I’ve read (though it’s not very clear) that these two islands get quite crowded during this period—would you recommend booking accommodation well in advance, or is it easy to find something on the spot?
Hotels or Airbnb?
Do you have any great tips for accommodation or any practical info to share?
We’ll be staying 5 to 7 days on each island.
Thanks in advance for your replies
Hi there. To make the most of Lake Toba, is it better to find accommodation on the lake’s shores (which one?) or on Samosir Island? Thanks for your tips!
Hi there,
We’re heading to Vietnam as a family on July 8th for a little over 3 weeks (north and center). We’ve only booked the first 3 nights in Hanoi, and nothing else after that. We like to decide things on the spot and go with the flow, without rushing everywhere. But I’m still a bit unsure: when heading down to the center (Hue), is it better to book the overnight trains in advance? We don’t want to take any flights while we’re there—just use the overnight train for the long trips. But I’m worried we won’t get seats if we buy the tickets on the spot, say, 2 days before. What do the experts here think? And which website can we use to book the tickets? Thanks in advance for your tips!
Hi everyone!
I’m heading back to Thailand in July 2026 with a stopover in Cambodia to visit the Angkor site.
After Angkor, I’ve booked a stay on Ko Chang island. Does anyone know if there are direct transport options from Cambodia to Ko Chang without having to go back through Bangkok? That would be amazing!!
I think there are, but I’d need more details!!
I went to Thailand in February 2025 and don’t remember having to apply for a visa—is that still the case now? And for Cambodia too?
Thanks so much!!!
Laurence from Bayonne
I’d love to get some feedback on our itinerary—it’s probably pretty basic! This is our second trip to Asia and our first to Indonesia. We have three kids aged 20, 18, and 12. We land in Jakarta at 4 PM, spend 3 nights/2 days there, then take the train to Yogyakarta for 3 nights/2 days, followed by the train to Surabaya for 2 nights/1 day, then the train to Bromo for 1 day/1 night, a private driver to Ijen for 2 nights/2 days, then on to Bali (Ubud) for 4 nights/3 days, followed by Gili Air for 3 nights/2 days, Senggigi (Lombok) for 2 nights, and finally 5 nights in Kuta. I’m considering cutting the 2 nights in Senggigi to just keep Kuta and extend it to 7 nights. In Lombok, I’m not sure how to get around since I’m not comfortable with scooters... Your thoughts on all of this, and any advice, are more than welcome—don’t hesitate!
For those wondering why cities like Jakarta and Surabaya: we don’t often get the chance to visit big Asian cities, so we wanted to include that discovery in our trip. The trains between Jakarta and Yogyakarta, Surabaya and Probolinggo are booked. The return flight from Lombok to Jakarta is also set. Accommodations are booked but flexible (same for the trains).
Hi,
After our trip to China, we want to spend a week in the Philippines for some beach time and snorkeling.
We're looking for the best spot to settle in—nice beaches, great marine life, and short transfer times.
Thanks for your suggestions!
Does anyone know of a private transfer or taxi company that organizes transfers from the Sukhothai area to Chiang Mai?
Our routes are Sukhothai-Lampang, Lampang-Chom Thong, and Chom Thong-Chiang Mai.
My searches on Google Maps, 12Go, and others haven’t turned up much...
For our Bangkok-Sukhothai trips, I use a company I’ve already tried, but they don’t have a fleet available from Sukhothai and have to go through third-party companies—which, understandably, take their commission. This nearly doubles the prices...
There are four of us, and we’re not traveling light, so a minibus isn’t an option. ;-)
Bonjour,
En voyage en Thaïlande je suis à la recherche de jonc bouddhiste kumlai.
Quelqu’un saurait-il me guider pour en trouver?
À Bangkok j’ai visité quelques temple mais je n’en n’ai pas trouvé sur les magasins à proximité.
Si vous avez une idée je suis preneuse! Belle journée :-)
My trip’s coming up, and I’m having a bit of trouble with three bus/minivan routes. Usually, I find everything at this time of year, but this time—yikes!
Sandakan → Sepilok:
No app for this one—you just hop on bus #14 at the local terminal (pay cash on board). But where do I catch it, and where’s the stop??
Sandakan → Semporna:
From what I’ve heard, it’s the Sida Express company (great name, right? 😄).
Can’t book online, but apparently, you *have* to because there’s only one bus at 8 AM.
Where do I board, and where does it drop me off?
Semporna → Tawau:
Found this via AI—is it legit?
No online booking, as far as I can tell.
Minivans leave from a stop in the Jalan Hospital area, near the Milimewa supermarket, supposedly????
And when you arrive, does it drop you at **Sabindo Square** in Tawau?????
Hi there,
we’ll be in Mai Chau in June and we’re thinking of heading to Sapa, but first spending a few days in Bac Ha to do some hiking and explore the area.
Is this a good idea for those who’ve been there?
How do you get there?
Thanks for your feedback.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cédric.
Hi everyone. As I’m planning my trip for next winter, I’m looking for hotel suggestions in Camotes, Bantayan, Malapascua, Bohol, and Siquijor. The ones I had in mind seem to be fully booked (unless it’s too early?). For those familiar with the area, is it easy to find accommodations on the spot in January/February? I’m specifically looking for hotels with a pool, beachfront, air conditioning, and easy scooter rental nearby. Thanks for your tips!
Hi there,
I’m planning an itinerary and would love some feedback on whether it’s doable and if the number of days per destination is enough—or too much. I was also debating whether to add an extra night on an island or spend an extra night in Kampot to visit Kep or Battambang.
March 23: Arrival in Phnom Penh in the morning
March 24: Phnom Penh
March 25: Phnom Penh
March 26: Depart for Kampot
March 27: Kampot
March 28: Depart for Battambang
March 29: Battambang
March 30: Tonlé SAP to Siem Reap
March 31: Siem Reap
April 1: Siem Reap
April 2: Siem Reap
April 3: Siem Reap
April 4: Siem Reap
April 5: Departure
Hi there,
Yesterday in the Thailand section, 100% of the new threads were just about beach destinations 😕...
So here’s the counterattack in the form of this photo thread, dedicated solely to the countryside: the locals, their livestock, fields, farms, rice paddies, small rivers, and agricultural machinery. If you’ve got any pictures that fit these categories, feel free to add them!
Comments welcome.
For each photo, I’ll (or you can) indicate the area where it was taken.
Hope you're all doing well! It's been a while since I last traveled, but I'm finally heading out again soon!
For those familiar with SOUTHEAST ASIA, I'm planning to leave in mid-June (with the trip ending at the latest in November), and I don’t have a precise idea of exact places or itineraries yet. The thing is, this period is usually the rainy season...
Any advice? I was thinking of Malaysia or Indonesia, like Sulawesi, for example (all countries and islands in Southeast Asia interest me except Bali).
Any recommendations? I’m doing my research online, but if anyone here has the time and knowledge, I’d love to hear from you.
My partner and I are planning a trip to Indonesia in September-October 2026. It’ll be our first time in Asia, and we’re thinking of hitting the classic spots in East Java and Bali, then wrapping up with a cruise around Komodo for some snorkeling/diving. Here’s a rough draft of our itinerary—I’m wondering if it’s doable.
20/09: Flight from Jakarta to Yogyakarta, arrive around noon, afternoon/evening and overnight in Yogyakarta.
21/09: Borobudur
22/09: Prambanan
23/09: Travel to Bromo (Cemoro Lawang)
24/09: Bromo
25/09: Kawa Ijen
26/09: Travel to Bali, overnight in Pemuteran
27/09: Excursion to Pulau Melujan, overnight in Pemuteran
28/09: Travel to Munduk, overnight in Munduk
29/09: Explore Munduk and surroundings, overnight in Munduk
30/09: Explore Munduk and surroundings, overnight in Munduk
01/10: Route to Ubud (via Pura Ulu Danau Bratan, Jatiluwih?), overnight in Ubud
02/10: Explore Ubud and surroundings, overnight in Ubud
03/10: Explore Ubud and surroundings, overnight in Ubud
04/10: Travel to Denpasar, flight to Labuan Bajo, overnight in Labuan Bajo
05/10: Komodo cruise
06/10: Komodo cruise
07/10: Komodo cruise, flight to Denpasar in the late afternoon/evening or overnight in Labuan Bajo.
08/10: Flight to Denpasar (if not taken the day before), afternoon in Jimbaran, overnight near Denpasar
09/10: 10:00 AM flight Denpasar - SIN, overnight in Singapore
10/10: Flight SIN-YQB
Hi everyone,
My girlfriend and I booked our tickets with Saudia Airlines for a trip to Thailand this summer, from July 5th to August 3rd. Given the geopolitical situation in the Middle East, we’re keeping a close eye on the news.
I was wondering if anyone here is in the same situation as us?
• Have you heard anything about possible mass cancellations or if the airline is still maintaining its routes to Asia?
• Are there any travelers who’ve recently returned who could tell us if air corridors have been changed (longer flight times)?
The idea is to know what to expect so we can prepare as best as possible. Thanks for your replies! !
Thanks for all your contributions on the forum—they’ve really helped me plan my trip. There are four of us friends heading to Sulawesi for 20 days. Based on all your advice, I’ve put together the following itinerary:
July 30: Makassar – sightseeing
July 31: Makassar – sightseeing + overnight bus to Rantepao
August 1–7: Tana Toraja with a guide
August 7: Tana Toraja to Tentena + visit Tentena
August 8: Early departure with a private driver to Ampana, then ferry to the Togian Islands
August 9–15: Togian Islands (2 different resorts)
August 15: Depart Togian Islands for Luwuk
August 16: Flight Luwuk to Makassar
August 17: Rammang Rammang
August 18: Stroll in Makassar, then return home
Overall, what do you think?
I also have a question about the connection between Tentena and the Togian Islands: Is it doable to leave early in the morning as planned and still be sure not to miss the ferry?
Hi everyone,
I’m currently working on a 30-day itinerary for May/June 2027.
10 days in eastern Java (Malang, Bromo, waterfalls, Meru Beriti Park, Banyuwangi, and Ijen), a short transit in Ubud for a few days, then Flores before heading back to Jakarta.
We’ll spend 15 days in Flores (the classic route: Moni, Bajawa, Riung, Ruteng, ending in Labuan Bajo).
I’d love some firsthand feedback on flights to Maumere or Ende from Bali Denpasar. I know there are no direct routes and that you have to connect through Labuan Bajo or Timor (I think), which isn’t an issue in itself.
But I’ve read here and there that flights to these destinations can be delayed—or worse, canceled—and that it’s better to fly in and out of Labuan Bajo, which isn’t exactly ideal...
Thanks for any tips or experiences you can share!
Family of 4—2 adults and 2 kids (11 and 15) who are well-traveled.
We’re planning a 15-day trip to Indonesia and would love your thoughts on our itinerary.
We love discovering local culture, food (!!), seeing beautiful landscapes, and keeping an active pace. We’re not the type to lounge on the beach for 5 hours or spend ages by the pool when we’re halfway across the world. Also, we try to avoid places "ruined" by mass tourism (like Holbox in Mexico, which we loved 10 years ago but not at all on our last visit, or Phi Phi in Thailand, completely destroyed by mass tourism).
Special note: we love traveling by train :)
Here’s what we’ve planned so far:
**Day 1**
Arrival in Jakarta, then domestic flight to Yogyakarta. Settle in Yogyakarta.
**Day 2**
Borobudur in the morning, then exploring nearby villages.
**Day 3**
Prambanan in the morning, followed by culinary discovery / market / local vibe in Yogyakarta.
**Day 4**
Train to Jombang, then driver/bus to the Bromo area. Overnight stay.
**Day 5**
Sunrise at Bromo, exploring the volcano and sea of sand. Relax in the afternoon.
**Day 6**
Travel to eastern Java, then train, ferry, and road to reach Sidemen in Bali.
**Day 7**
Sidemen
**Day 8**
Sidemen
**Day 9**
Sidemen
**Day 10**
Transfer to Gili Air (car to the port + fast boat?)
**Day 11**
Gili Air
**Day 12**
Gili Air
**Day 13**
Transfer to Ubud
**Day 14**
Ubud
**Day 15**
Return to Bali airport, flight to Jakarta, then international flight.
Does this itinerary seem coherent for a family?
Does it feel too packed or well-balanced?
Would you make any changes to certain stops, durations, or transfers?
