Nurse in Marrakech

This hypothesis doesn’t exist in Muslim countries... and rest assured that Moroccan girls don’t think about living alone..... only if it’s a woman of the streets, and even then, she’s lost her family (this happens in France)... here in Morocco, a woman always stays with her parents and brothers until someone comes along to marry her, and there’s no marriage without the parents’ approval either... Morocco is a 99% Muslim country.

hey chariff

lots of Moroccan girls leave home to live on their own, and they’re so happy to no longer be under the thumb of a brother or family who act like little bosses. and every time I meet one, I congratulate her!

I'm telling you to consider that she might actually do it. Moroccan law doesn't prevent it, right! So imagine if she does—what would you do?

I’m sorry, but my upbringing doesn’t lead me to see freedom, family, or women in society the way you do. To me, you lack an open mind—I don’t hold it against you because I think, unfortunately, it’s your upbringing as a Muslim man speaking. I’m trying to come to terms with it. I really wish you could understand that your way of thinking is outdated. What I don’t appreciate is how you speak for Moroccan women and label them as "women of the streets," then bring those ideas to France. I respect your religion, but you must also accept the customs of others without seeing evil in them. 99% of Moroccans are Muslim—I’d love to talk with the percentage that embodies tolerance, because I believe that’s part of your religion too. Don’t forget that. (I’ll open a discussion about all this one day).

Small correction: His attitude or way of thinking isn’t at all tied to Islam. If he were Christian, he’d be a traditionalist. We shouldn’t blame everything on Islam.

..maybe it's a new generation of girls who leave the family home without reason (marriage). Tell me, dear sister (brother), where are the religious principles... and still, I don't believe what you're saying... traditions are still here, especially religious ones...

You still haven't answered my question, my dear Chariff?

I really don’t know... it’s gonna be a shock for me and the whole family, and maybe it’ll be the end of our brotherhood? A Muslim woman isn’t allowed to live alone unless circumstances force it, and that’s from a religious perspective that might be deeply ingrained in Moroccan Muslim morality.

let's move on from that. Do you know about the new Moroccan family law?

Now, a girl doesn’t need her father’s permission to get married. What do you think about that?

Salam Alaikoum bouriane If you're truly Muslim, you’ll surely understand what I’m explaining... the Islamic religion exists and is unchangeable (valid for all times and will remain until the end of the world, and only Islam will endure...) This archaic term doesn’t exist in the Islamic religion. With all respect for women, but I’m talking about Moroccan Muslim women (not like those you hit on in clubs and bars in Morocco). Thank you for being understanding... I write clearly and don’t impose my ideas on others who don’t want to understand me or don’t even know why they practice Islam...?

Under Muslim law for marriage and for the act to be 100% Islamic... is the father's consent (or the wali) mandatory? See Al Hadith? Otherwise, the act is no longer considered Muslim... it's prostitution in Islam (open your eyes if you want to practice your religion properly)

so you don’t think the new Moroccan law is Muslim-friendly?

If... but I don’t think that exists in Morocco... what I said is the marriage rule... you can ask the Minister of Islamic Affairs, and you’ll only get my answer... there are plenty of people who live differently, but I’m telling you what religion said.

The new family law states that a daughter no longer needs her father's consent to marry.

So she can legally marry in Morocco without her father's approval.

This is Moroccan law.

And you—does this new law align with Islam? (You said that in Islam, a daughter must have her father's consent.)

...Moroccan law regarding marriage is as follows: Both spouses, the father or the wali (the girl’s guardian if the father is deceased and she has no father or brother, with the qadi stepping in as a replacement), and two Adels (officials from the Ministry of Islamic Affairs)... in this case, the marriage is recognized as an Islamic marriage contract, and what you see or hear that goes against Islam is considered prostitution (may Allah protect and bless our Muslim brothers and sisters). To better understand marriage in Islam, you can read works by (Al Alamacha) or professors of Islamic studies.... and everything you mentioned... I don’t believe it exists in Morocco. Maybe among Moroccans abroad....?!

Big mistake. Moroccan law has changed unless you haven't heard about it everywhere.

The new law: both spouses are fully covered WITHOUT the father's or guardian's (brother, uncle, etc.) consent.

Do some research before replying because Moroccan law has changed for 2 years now. If you don't believe me, ask your nurse sister or someone else.

So, I’ll ask you again: "Is the new Moroccan law Islamic or not?"

Here’s some information for you regarding a few articles from the Family Code (Moudawana):

•Article 51 In the list of mutual rights and duties between spouses, the following points are particularly noteworthy:

•The wife shares with the husband the responsibility of managing household affairs and protecting the child.

•and also,

•consultation in decisions related to family matters, children, and family planning

Article 54

•Equality in family responsibility

•The family is now placed under the "joint responsibility of both spouses."

Article 51 - Article 52

•Equality in the rights and duties of both spouses. Abandonment of the rule of "the wife’s obedience to her husband"

Article 11

•Abolition of the rule that subjected women, under the title of "wilaya" in marriage, to the guardianship of a male family member

•"Wilaya" is now a right of adult women, who are free to make their own choices and exercise them according to their own will and free consent.

Article 19

•Equality between women and men regarding the legal age of marriage, uniformly set at 18 years.

Article 70 – Article 78 - Article 114

•Divorce is defined as the dissolution of marriage bonds, which both husband and wife may initiate under judicial supervision, according to legal conditions specific to each. •In the previous text, divorce was a discretionary prerogative exercised by the husband, often abusively, and no recourse to a judge was considered.

Chariff, are you living on Mars or what? As Nemo told you, there are laws—the Moudawana has changed, and it’s for women’s benefit whether you like it or not. Now, women can ask for a divorce, yes, Chariff, they can even say no if they’re forced into marriage.

Initially, this discussion was about a nurse named "Sabrina," but I suggest we move the rest of the conversation about Islam—which interests me—to another thread. If you'd like, I can start it. I’d love to hear other perspectives on this topic.

I’m really aware of the unease in Moroccan society. I’m not sure how to bring up the subject without it sounding like a trial, but just as a way to share different ideas. I support your views.

didier

hey there

big topic but a tricky one—good luck! 😉

Moroccan law is based on Islam!! And to know if my sister can be in court... she's been married for over 20 years... which chapter in the marriage law says that??? I don't believe it.... the husband doesn't need someone like the wali... ARE YOU MOROCCAN?

No, I’m not Moroccan, but I think I know Moroccan laws better than you do.

Read the previous message carefully where I quoted the Moroccan law, citing the articles relevant to our topic.

Moroccan women no longer need their father’s permission to marry.

What’s more, a husband can’t divorce her if she doesn’t agree.

This is the new *Moudawana*. Go buy a Moroccan newspaper—everyone’s been talking about it since February 2004 (when the new law was passed).

Women no longer have a legal guardian; now they’re equal to men.

My question remains the same:

If the law no longer requires the father’s permission to marry, do you still consider the law to be Islamic?

Are you really Moroccan if you don’t even know the new family law, when everyone in Morocco has talked and is still talking about this topic?

This is a very sensitive topic.

You’ve got to tread carefully. I think you see what I’m trying to do. Actually, there’s real discomfort among part of the population regarding this new law.

Thanks for being interested in this issue. The law might be 100% Islamic in theory, and what I said reflects the Islamic perspective. To fully understand, you should go to the wilaya (some legal terms have different meanings when we interpret them).

If this is true, will the wilaya be held accountable before Allah?! There’s a hadith in Arabic: "LA NIKAHA ILLA BI WALI" (see Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi). This means marriage isn’t valid without a Wali (which might refer to the wilaya in the article). Another hadith says: "Ayyouma imra’a tazawwajat bi ghairi idhni waliyyiha, fa nikahoha batil, fa nikahoha batil, fa nikahoha batil" (see Sahih Sunan Abu Dawood).

Some scholars (Al-Ulama) also said: "La nikaha illa bi Shahidayn," meaning "No marriage without two witnesses."

Instead of speaking out, make an effort to ask Islamic questions to people knowledgeable in Islam (Al-Ulama, Islamic scholars).

Thanks for bringing up this very different topic with multiple perspectives.

Are you Moroccan or not? First and foremost, I speak as a Muslim? And I'm proud to be Moroccan

Sofmasa... Of course, she can ask for a divorce if the husband doesn’t give her his property or if it turns out he isn’t a practicing Muslim (if he doesn’t pray, for example, or neglects other Islamic basics). Otherwise, from an Islamic perspective, if the husband is a "real man" as they say, and the wife asks for a divorce... there’s a Hadith that implies Allah won’t approve if a woman seeks divorce without a valid reason...

Divorce in Islam involves many factors (timing and circumstances)—see the Quran and Hadith. It’s a big topic... check out books on divorce, like *Al-Mawsū‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah al-Muyassarah* or *Kitāb al-Ṭalāq* (Encyclopedia of simplified fiqh?)....

I can't answer this question without consulting the (OLAMA). I'm like everyone else here and I adhere to Moroccan Muslim law, but after the Olama (Quran and Sunnah)... women in Islam are not equal to men. Whoever says that in general about Islam is not a Muslim in the eyes of the Olama. The Quran says: "...wa lahonna mitlou alladi alaihinna...wa li rijali alaihinna daraja daraja wallaho azizoun hakim" (Al-Baqara "The Cow" 228) and "Arrijal kawwamoun ala annissa bima faddala Allah badahoum......." (see An-Nisa "Women" 34). There are also several hadiths stating that men are not equal to women in certain precise senses... Thanks for reading and understanding.

Thanks for your clarifications...

I think you’re straying from the topic. According to you, if the father’s consent isn’t given, the marriage isn’t Muslim, yet Moroccan law doesn’t require the father’s approval. So, in your view, Moroccan law wouldn’t be Muslim?

I think you don’t even know your own country and you’re thousands of kilometers away from Moroccan life. This is the first time I’ve seen a so-called Moroccan living in Morocco who’s never heard of the new *Moudawana*.

It’s time to wake up because the day has been here for a while; you should get out of bed before it’s night for good.

Being Muslim isn’t what you think it is.

***I don’t think you even know your own country, and you’re thousands of kilometers away from Moroccan life***

The issue is that you’re talking about completely different things.

On one side, there’s the obscurantist—someone who, despite living in Germany, clings to a strict Muslim mindset, recognizing no laws other than their own Quranic interpretation, and couldn’t care less about the laws passed in their country. And if you knew a little about the real Morocco (which clearly isn’t your case), you’d see that almost the entire rural population, the disadvantaged communities on the outskirts of cities, and even some "elites" think exactly like our obscurantist!

But to understand this, reading a few trendy magazines or copy-pasting texts from random sources won’t cut it. You have to experience the country beyond resort hotels. You need to immerse yourself in the local population, get close to the work done by humanitarian organizations, or even live within a company. That’s when you quickly realize that modernizing customs through laws is either completely utopian or, at best, if the obscurantists slow things down out of fear, it won’t happen overnight!

my dear raoulx,

I’m fully aware of how obscurantist this guy is, claiming to live in Morocco and not Germany.

On the other hand, even though you say I don’t know Morocco, you’re completely mistaken in thinking I’m some tourist who stays in hotels or resorts.

I wasn’t just copying stuff from magazines—it was to show him, in a simple way, the legal articles related to our topic (with text that’s easier to understand than the original, which I can send you if you want).

Besides, I know perfectly well that a large part of the population isn’t even aware of the conditions of this law, and of course, laws don’t change mentalities overnight.

The point of my discussion with this person was to see how far he’d go in his statements and beliefs. The question was whether, based on his definition of a Muslim marriage, the new Moroccan law was Muslim or not in his eyes.

Little remark for you: Don’t assume I’m some tourist visiting Morocco. I know Moroccan society and its intricacies just as well as you do, if not better. I’m not just some tourist, and I’m not there to talk about my own case/situation.

😐 Hey, how's it going? I'm also a Moroccan nurse from Ouarzazate. I just finished my training at the Health Careers Training Institute. I don’t know if you have any idea about the recruitment competition organized by the state... anyway, while waiting for a stable government position (which can take one or two years), could you help me find a job in a private clinic in Marrakech? I really need it.

Thanks a bunch!

Good evening Bouriane,

I’m a nurse in France and I’d like to work in Morocco, but I’m originally Moroccan and I know how things work there. I don’t think I’d last long!! 🙁 On the other hand, working with Europeans would be my preference, so if your friend is interested, I’d be ready to drop everything.

Best regards,

Naima.

To contact me: onima@hotmail.fr

For now, his clinic is still under construction—it won’t open before the end of 2008, so we’ll have to wait. Just so you know, it’s for cardiovascular care, and if you contact him, mention that you know Mr. Bouriane, Justine’s father. Marrakech. I don’t know his name; I’m terrible with spelling Moroccan names.

hi I’m mohamed, I’m Moroccan from the Ouarzazate region I’ve been an auxiliary nurse for 6 months I’m unemployed!!!!!!!! I have to say, being a nurse is tough in Morocco because working conditions aren’t even close to those in France thanks

In response to Sabrina, I’m a nurse anesthetist, and after working for 3 years in a university hospital, I can tell you that working conditions here in Morocco—especially in healthcare—are unfavorable. In particular, the status of nurses still hasn’t been properly established.

As for the diploma, I don’t think it’ll be recognized for two main reasons: first, because working conditions here are different from those in France, and second, because the Moroccan healthcare system is also different from yours, even if it’s modeled after France’s. Plus, Moroccans who’ve trained in France or elsewhere have been forced to get their diplomas recognized here in Morocco for them to be valid.

When it comes to salary, Moroccan nurses earn 2 to 3 times less than French nurses in the public sector. In the private sector, it’s even worse—you can’t imagine how bad it is—except maybe in Casablanca and Rabat, where private-sector nurses are better paid compared to other cities.

For training, thankfully, there are several high-quality health career institutes in cities like Rabat, Casablanca, Fez, Marrakech, and Agadir that train general nurses and specialists (midwives, anesthesia/resuscitation, radiology technicians, dietitians, etc.) over 3 years, awarding a state diploma.

Thanks for your patience.

Hey, I’m a nurse anesthetist in Fez. The state-organized recruitment competition still hasn’t happened because of strikes by the graduates in front of the ministry. They didn’t accept the competition and want to be assigned without it. As for your wish to work in a clinic, I personally think you should look in clinics in Rabat or Casablanca because nurses are well paid there. On the other hand, in other cities, nurses don’t count for much in clinics—they might bring in someone off the street, train them a bit, and then replace you. They’ll treat you however they want, even after you’ve studied for 3 years with all the stress of school and the demanding internships. Do you agree with me or not?

Hi there,

I came across this forum because I’m looking to go work in Morocco as a nurse. I was just wondering if your friend opened their clinic in Marrakech, because I’d be really interested. I’ve been working as a nurse in a visceral surgery clinic for 8 years. I’ll be in Marrakech for a short stay in 10 days, so I’d like to take the opportunity to do some networking. Thanks in advance! Coralie

would you be willing to accept a salary of 500 €?

if that’s enough for me to live on, yeah. I’m not trying to make a fortune! Then again, I’ll have to see how much I can get for accommodation.

Have you ever been to Marrakech?

500 € might be enough or not at all—it really depends on how you want to live and your expectations!

I don’t know Marrakech yet, or even this part of Morocco. What I’m asking for is a salary that lets me pay for a small apartment, feed myself, cover expenses, and have a little left at the end of the month (so I don’t have to dip into my savings).

I no longer see this person, so I can’t help you anymore.

That said, if you’re working in France as a nurse, stay there. My daughter’s starting nursing school, my sister’s a nurse, a friend is too, and my advice? You’d have to be crazy or completely out of your mind to want to work in Morocco given the working conditions and salary. 500 € to live in the sun and eat great veggies or live like a local? NO THANKS. You’ll work and be way more exploited than in France. People complain about France and the cost of living, but the quality of life is in France—that’s why Moroccans all want to come work here. Think about it and get out of your tourist mindset.

Thanks for your reply and advice, but for me, it’s not just a tourist project like you said—it’s a more complicated story!

I’ve read all the posts, and I’m still a bit shocked that we’re being labeled as lazy, especially by that guy who says his friend wants to open a clinic in Marrakech and hire foreign nurses—even French ones. I’ve seen several reports where retirees or elderly people are mistreated, and I’ve never once seen a Moroccan, Tunisian, or Algerian woman do anything like that. So why does this man want to open a center here in Morocco? For the chance to get qualified but underpaid labor? It’s disgusting to say that the "Moroccan" medical staff isn’t qualified when you should really be asking questions about your own "French" system. There’s a huge shortage of nurses in France simply because the French don’t want to do such exhausting work—just like with call centers and offshoring. Many French products are relocated here because the workforce isn’t just efficient but also turns a blind eye to the 44 HOURS forced on them every week. There’s a 9-hour gap between a French teleoperator handling the same product and a Moroccan one... And according to several surveys, the French are only happy when their French products are handled in other countries instead of France. So get off your backsides and put in those 44 hours a week yourselves!

Hi, I came across your post by chance and maybe you can help me. I’d like to go to Marrakech for the end-of-year holidays (more specifically Christmas) to meet up with a friend. But I’m a wheelchair user and need a nurse’s help in the mornings. After reading your post, I thought you might be in Marrakech—and even better, a private nurse (do they exist in Morocco?)

Would you have any information that could be useful to me? Thanks in advance!

That would be really kind of you.

Emanuelito

Hi, I just read (belatedly!) your question about working as a nurse in Morocco—I’m interested in the same project. My name’s Charlotte, I’m 46, and I’m a registered nurse (graduated in 1986!). Have you had any replies or useful info since then? Could you share them with me? That’d be really kind of you. Thanks so much in advance!!

Hi there Sorry the topic’s been discussed for so long. Of course I’m here to help? Answer and chat? What’s your plan? Thanks

Hi sis, I don’t know if you’re still active on this site, but I’m giving it a shot—I wanted to ask if there’s a nursing school in Marrakech. Thanks, and see you soon, Inshallah. Beslama