Societal Evolution

Hello

It’s the same on this forum as in real life—people consume but don’t give back, have more rights than responsibilities, and can’t handle any contradiction or differing viewpoints. And of course, politeness and courtesy have no place in society anymore.

Plus, I’m sure Peaugres must be really nice to visit [;)]

On a side note, this reminds me of a participant who often complimented me in the most beautiful way about my travel journals, warmly thanked me for this or that great tip—well beyond basic politeness.

But in hindsight: never a tip shared in return, and total forgetfulness about the Facebook page where she was in touch with my wife.

What I’m getting at is that what seemed better before was often just appearances. They aren’t flatterers—they’re sincere—but ultimately not very open to sharing.

It was only after a few years on VF that a comment from another member in a thread made me understand things. He pointed out to someone that they were only taking information without ever giving anything back. That’s exactly when I realized that on every profile, you can see how long a member has been registered, how many messages they’ve written, and the tone of those messages. You spot them quickly—there are a lot of them—who’ve been members for 10 or 15 years, with fewer than 100 messages to their name, and every year, nothing but requests for help planning their trip. At the slightest remark, those people often show their true colors, suddenly becoming much less pleasant. In short, they’re nice as long as you give them what they want. One day, I called one out, and she defended herself vehemently and with great aggression. I remember several members took her side: I was the bad guy, and who did I think I was? In the end, she swore up and down that she’d post a trip report on VF after her next journey. Not only did she obviously never follow through, but a few months later, she even managed to get the discussion thread she’d opened for her questions deleted—I don’t know how. You can only imagine what kind of person she is.

The ones who get away with it are those who don’t write anything. They’re invisible, do their research at will, and leave with their loot. No one’s the wiser.

That said, I’ve had some great satisfactions with people who took the time to write travel journals in recognition of those published by other members. They’re far from the majority, but that’s just how life is.

For the rest, as I often say, we’re now dealing with the first generations of poorly raised people whose parents were also poorly raised. All of this in a context where schools have seriously declined, and screens—especially small ones—reveal their ability to damage minds. Many operate with a consumerist mindset rather than a sharing one. Just look at the counter showing the number of visitors online in the past hour—it’s pretty high—and compare it to the number of messages posted...

Personally, I’ve drawn my conclusions: since 2018, my travel journals no longer reveal certain concrete details, and when it comes to sharing info, I choose who I give it to. Oh, every now and then I slip up and share something, but what can you do? Old habits die hard.

"There’s no greater gift than giving your time and energy to help others without expecting anything in return." Nelson Mandela

Not to mention it releases dopamine. [;)]

“Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, it is also the mother of all others.”

Cicero

Hello, I’ve been on VF for a long time now, and I don’t post very often anymore, simply because I don’t travel much these days. But I still come here to recharge by reading. Because this place *lives*. We take our time—both in the moment and over the long haul. I’m not into social media. I left Facebook two or three years ago because of the ads, the constant free-for-all with no constructive approach, and the sheer waste of time. Just like so many other social networks, like the societal model we’re forced into. Here, on VF, I don’t waste my time. I *take* it. And I think that’s the mindset that brings together the "regulars" of this site. The conversations here feed me. Sometimes, I add my two cents. The posts from people who just drop by to gobble up the info they want (and run from the info they don’t) are just like those instant-consumption social media platforms—and that’s exactly what society has become. Speed, constant urgency, mindless consumption, everything pre-packaged, no reflection. Oh well! Too bad for the drive-by consumers who don’t even know how to say thank you. We know the times we live in create dehumanized robots. Too bad. What a shame, a real shame. I hope this forum stays a haven of humanity and the joy of sharing and reading for a while longer. It’s up to us to make sure it does. Slow time is delicious, and too bad for those who rush away from it, driven by an urgency that has no place here.

On that note: Thank you all for sharing this gentle pleasure of reading about travel.

Murielle

"Everybody wonders how to leave a better planet for our children, but we should really be thinking about leaving better children for our planet."

Clint Eastwood

"Everybody wonders how to leave a better planet for our children, but we should really be thinking about leaving better children for our planet."

Clint Eastwood

We totally agree. Still, I find some people’s ingratitude more noticeable on the Routard forum than here on VF. Unfortunately, it’s clear that VF has also become less responsive than the other one...

It's true that our friend Deborah set up another forum during VF's hiatus, and now she isn't closing it down. The most active members are now split between two forums. It plays its part, even if it's far from the only explanation.

It’s true that our friend Deborah set up another forum during VF’s downtime, and now she’s not shutting it down.

Even though I don’t use it, I’m glad she’s not shutting it down! All that work...

Yeah, I get that. Plus, they’re left in peace there—no one can go ask them if they’re on their 8th or 12th COVID vaccine booster. Darn, I think I’m gonna get scolded again...

Well, it feels good to take a little step back from time to time, Alain 😊.

I admit I’ve become more selective in my replies. I’m no Mother Teresa (though sometimes I wonder 😅), I come here mostly for the exchange. And honestly, I skip those who just show up or only ever have questions instead of real messages.

I also find it sad how many people read your travel journal without even saying a word. On average, I get 100 reads per post for just 2 replies! I often think I’m weird for always writing something in the journals I like 😕. But it seems like the least you can do is tell the other person, "No, no, you’re not doing this for nothing—we’re here."

But it really is a sign of our times: "Take everything you can and only think of yourself!"

Thankfully, in real life, I don’t know many people like that. I must be good at keeping them far away from me 😏😊.

Have a great evening, everyone

It feels good not to feel so alone anymore! (yes, because sometimes I wonder if I'm turning into a grumpy old-timer with that "back in my day" vibe ).

And yeah, I sometimes get annoyed at my screen when some people only ask for things without ever giving anything back—worse still, they post a question and don’t even bother reading the answers!

But writing a travel journal, we do it a little for ourselves too, right? (Dopamine question, huh Jean-Luc). Still, I find it a bit discouraging when no one chimes in, even if there are a decent number of views (maybe it’s just about the people—some prefer to unfold their story without too many interruptions).

I also agree with Joël’s (long) message... but dealing with someone polite, even if it’s just surface-level, is always nicer than dealing with a rude person

Hello Muriel, and everyone,

Politeness, closely tied to a notion of respect (at the very least), was taught to us from a very young age. Well, that’s how it was for me, at least. And it still holds true... in principle!!

Saying "Thank you" after receiving a service, no matter how small, is a basic part of living together in our society (or at least, that’s what I thought). Stepping aside to let an elderly person pass, holding a swinging door for someone else, helping move a bulky object... there are so many moments in life where "little things" make living together more pleasant and sociable, it seems to me.

But clearly, when you ask for information or a favor, saying thank you at the end feels natural to me. We don’t do the favor or give the information just to hear the word "thank you," of course, but it’s a reflex of respect for others—just like stopping at a red light!

I noticed on safari that my relationship with the driver or guide took a different turn when I said "Thank you" after a great discovery, a requested photo stop, or at the end of the day. And I saw around us that this was very uncommon... which shocked me. I must really be "old-fashioned"!!

Don’t worry, Muriel, I’m not writing a trip report to get responses.

Back in 2013, I had a serious health issue, and I was trying to escape by looking for travel journals or airshow reports (another passion of mine), but I only found short stories with about ten images... Not enough to keep someone stuck at home or bedridden occupied. I promised myself that (if I got better), I’d write long reports with lots of images, primarily for those who are ill or don’t have the opportunity or means to travel or attend these events.

But I also realized that by writing my reports, I was reliving the trip myself (on a budget) and noticing details I hadn’t paid attention to at the time.

So, the feedback doesn’t matter—it’s not the point of my stories.

Have a good Sunday. Regards, Puma2A

Reading all of you, I take comfort in thinking that it's better to be surrounded by a few quality people than by a crowd churning out messages at top speed.

Reading all of you, I take comfort in thinking it’s better to be surrounded by a few quality people than by a crowd spinning messages at top speed.

Isn’t it usually towels we spin? 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♀️😂

PS: If that’s not a quality message, I don’t know what is!! ;)

Yeah, I get that. And besides, they’re left in peace there—no one can go ask them if they’re on their 8th or 12th COVID booster. Darn, I think I’m gonna get scolded again...

It’s not me who’s gonna scold you 😛 Forums that are too quiet, or where even the slightest jab gets moderated, interest me less than those where we can speak more freely. But that opinion doesn’t take away from the effort or work that went into creating this forum.

Yes, and Deborah is a really nice woman.

It feels good not to feel so alone! Clever (yes, because sometimes I wonder if I’m turning into a grumpy old-timer with that "back in my day it was better!" vibe. LOL).

Same here! 😄

Yeah, it’s sometimes frustrating not to get a simple thank-you. But honestly, that was already the case even before VF shut down. What really gets to me, though, are the people who don’t ask questions in travel journals, who can’t be bothered to start a discussion, and yet still expect to get tips and info via PM.

Direct from producer to consumer! [;)]

Straight from producer to consumer! [;)]

A long-time member, or a recent one, comes to ask a question. They get one or more brief or detailed answers, and then... nothing???

Not even a thank you!!!

...

Hello,

I agree with you—it’s disappointing, and it’s always existed, but now that activity on travel forums has dropped so much, it really stands out.

There’s less and less exchange between passionate travelers and more and more requests from tourist-consumers who never come back to share their trip. That’s why forums are losing their appeal.

Some will tell you that soon we’ll just ask Artificial Intelligence everything, since it doesn’t get offended if you don’t say thank you....

we are now facing the first poorly raised generations whose parents themselves had been poorly raised.

Hello,

I think a good portion of those who frequent forums are already a certain age, or even quite old.

Travel forums, like travel guides, are a "old-school" thing—they’re not really frequented by people under 40, and even less by those under 30. So we’re not really dealing with rude young people who don’t say thank you.

Hello,

After reading some of the previous replies, I at least hope it’s not shocking to say/write "hello" or "thank you"... ???

Probably an old-school reflex... (well, not everyone!)

Recently, someone pointed out to me that, generally, "people" don’t say hello to start a text message... Afraid of shocking them, I even apologized for doing it!! [:|]

Take care.

Puma2A

...

Hello!

Yes, this was already true before the forum closed, and it's even more the case now. I've lost count of the number of people who come to ask their question and then either never return to the forum or come back to grab the answers but forget to say thanks or even just reply.

I’m more forgiving of the first group.

As for the others, if I happen to come across a new question from them, I sometimes give them a bit of nonsense info while keeping a straight face... Gotta have a little fun, right!

Anyway, traffic and posts on this site have collapsed since it shut down.... Travel Facebook groups have taken over now.

It's the same for all forums...

I'm not a fan of Facebook groups, it's not the same!

In any case, attendance and posts on this site have collapsed since its closure....

The Forum stayed closed for several years, and people got into the habit of asking questions and exchanging ideas elsewhere. Some only learned that VF had reopened a few weeks ago when they received the Newsletter.

People got used to coming here in read-only mode, and they’re staying in read-only mode (as long as there’s still something to read), without participating—neither to ask questions nor to chat.

Facebook (and social media for younger folks) took over from travel forums, and the few forums that are still active increasingly resemble Facebook (questions asked, tone of discussions, ads for guides or agencies, etc...).

Personally, what annoys me the most are people who don’t ask questions in travel journals, who don’t bother starting a discussion, and who want to receive tips and info via PM.

Hello,

I had this happen a few days ago—someone asked me questions about a country I’d written a report and travel journal on, which they’d read. I asked them to post their questions (there were quite a few) on the forum report I’d shared and even sent them the link. But they still didn’t post their questions in the discussion.

If I don’t "know" the person, I don’t reply in private messages. It’s happened to me on another forum where I spent a long time answering people who didn’t even thank me. I even had one person I’d exchanged a lot with about Panama, which I’d just visited, and when I asked them for info about Paraguay, where they’d been (and where there’s little info available), they told me to look it up online…

What makes a forum valuable is the public exchanges and tips that can help others.

I asked him for information about Paraguay, where he had been and for which there is little information, and he told me to look it up on the Internet....

I must have dealt with the same person! No response! Personally, I’ve already been to Paraguay, but the "visited" part (between Iguaçu Falls in Brazil, Asunción, and Corrientes in Argentina) didn’t leave me with an unforgettable memory... Just huge haciendas and kilometers of barbed wire. I was looking for information about the far north: the Gran Chaco... There used to be a member on this forum, Jcamericasur, who lived in Paraguay, but he hasn’t resurfaced in many years.

Hi there,

For me, it was on another forum, and it was in 2023 or 2024, but there are contributors who post on multiple forums, and the way things work is the same.

Anyway, now I’m a lot more selective about my private replies.

In public messages, we can always tell ourselves that even if we don’t get a reply or thanks, it might still help someone else.

So we’ve gone from: I swap stuff in total solidarity (and sometimes argue about it) to: I’m just looking out for myself.

The future? A good third of travelers will disappear along with their jobs because of AI, and after that, they’ll end up grafting us to the Machine, which’ll turn everything upside down and catapult us into another dimension. Hey, remember when we used to be human?

Anyway, your plan doesn’t exactly sell us the dream! 😞

The future is that a good third of travelers will disappear along with their profession due to Artificial Intelligence

Which profession are we talking about? You’re fantasizing a bit about AI. What are AI platforms? Data centers, or data centers in plain English, where servers are stacked and run 24/7. But as far as I know, a computer can’t taste a pizza in Naples, steamed dumplings in Beijing, etc... and likewise, a computer isn’t capable of emotions. The city you visit as a traveler might appeal to you or it might not. Venice could very well charm you or give you the blues, a touch of melancholy—it all depends on your mood at the time. What interests me is the feeling of things, not a copy-paste from Wikipedia or a travel guide [;)]

and just as a computer isn't capable of emotions.

No, but it doesn’t need to feel them—it just needs to give the illusion that it does.

The city you visit as a traveler may appeal to you or it may not.

Thanks to the countless data that most people willingly and freely provide online, AI is increasingly able to predict people’s choices and behaviors with reliability.

You're fantasizing a bit about AI. What are AI platforms? Data centers, or data centres in proper French, where servers are stacked and run 24/7.

You really have to not have grasped AI up close to reduce it to a pile of data, even if that’s intrinsically what it is.

Of course, it will eliminate jobs—it’s already started (analysts, management controllers, translators, journalists…). But just like coachmen when railways arrived, this (r)evolution will create other professions.

But just as coachmen did with the arrival of railways, this (r)evolution will create other jobs...

It's very likely that AI will create new jobs and also be a huge help (I'm thinking especially of medicine), but I agree with Mathews when it comes to its usefulness in the travel field... In my opinion, the internet has already started to turn travel into a consumer product, and AI will finish the job! I'm glad I was able to travel properly before these two "tools" came along.

I really enjoy planning a trip: reading, watching, dreaming, imagining itineraries... but I don’t have many illusions about how most trips will be planned in a few years.

That said, does it necessarily have to be a bad thing? (Setting aside the carbon footprint generated by AI use.)

But we’re getting off the original topic [;)]

On the other hand, will it necessarily be a bad thing? (Aside from the carbon footprint generated by AI use).

If so many people "travel" these days using new tools like the internet and AI, it’s because they find happiness in this "ease." And I almost feel like encouraging them.

I loved traveling for the spirit of adventure, the taste for the unknown, to rub shoulders with new ways of thinking... to escape for a few moments from the modern world, which I sometimes find cramped and tyrannical—a modern world I’m still happy to return to, though.

The world is becoming more uniform: we dress, eat, and live almost the same way in France as in Thailand or elsewhere... and this will only intensify. I’m glad I was able to travel at a time when even paper guides didn’t exist.

If so many people "travel" these days with these new tools like the internet and AI, it's because they find happiness in this "ease."

I agree with you.

People often make fun of AI, and it reminds me of the early days of cell phones when people mocked those who talked on the street with their phones. Today, everyone does the same—no one can live without their phone, and everyone is glued to it.

AI will be the same. One day, we won’t be able to do without it, and we’ll use it for everything.

The world is becoming more uniform—we dress, eat, and live the same way, or almost.

I think this is especially true in big cities, but elsewhere there’s less uniformity.

I’m so happy I got to travel back when even paper guides didn’t exist

How old are you, Jean-Michel? Speaking of which, maybe you’re dead and just hanging around here...? The first printed travel guide dates back to 1836 with the publication of *Voyage on the Rhine from Mainz to Cologne* by Karl Baedeker (thanks, AI [:P])

I think this is especially true in big cities; elsewhere, there’s less uniformity.

Just three details: Before, in almost all of South and Southeast Asia, you wouldn’t see people in pants—just sarungs. Except still in Myanmar, pretty much everywhere else now everyone dresses in Western-style clothes.

The roofs of houses almost everywhere in Southeast Asia have been made of corrugated iron (ugly) for the past 20 or 30 years. Before that, only thatch or woven palm was used. You only see those now in certain "village-museums" for tourists (in Sulawesi, Flores, Sumatra). In Nepal, all the roofs used to be wooden with carved balconies, walls made of stone or brick—no concrete!

You couldn’t find any European food, and of course, no burgers, fries, or pizza! In India and Sri Lanka (Ceylon), people everywhere ate with their fingers—no forks, knives, or spoons...

The first printed travel guide dates back to 1836 with the publication of "Voyage on the Rhine from Mainz to Cologne" by Karl Baedeker (thanks AI)

I was talking about guides like Lonely Planet or Le Routard, where they give you addresses for restaurants, accommodations, various tips, bus and train schedules, etc.—not the "literary" guides that explain the country's history, customs, religion, and so on... The first Routard guide came out in 1974. I kept one for all of Indonesia—no thicker than 2 cm—with just one page for Sumatra, featuring 1 or 2 very basic accommodations. The rest was stuff like "ask at the police station to pitch your tent"...

I was talking about guidebooks like Lonely Planet or Routard that give you addresses for restaurants and accommodations

Young people who are 20 today don’t use travel guidebooks anymore—they have all the info on their phones.

Otherwise, Lonely Planet has drastically reduced the pages about accommodations and restaurants. I mean, in the internet age, those pages don’t make much sense anymore when you can just search online and get dozens of recent reviews (with photos) for pretty much every hotel and restaurant in a city.

Besides, maybe you’re dead and you’re just hanging around here...?

What if Djalma was actually an AI from the Vercors?

Young people who are 20 today no longer use travel guides—they have all the info on their phones.

Otherwise, Lonely Planet has drastically reduced the pages about accommodations and restaurants. It makes sense, since in the internet age, those pages don’t hold much value when you can just search online and find dozens of recent reviews (with photos) for pretty much every hotel and restaurant in a city.

Yeah, of course (I *do* know that! ), it’s not just true for 20-year-olds but also for those who are 70 or older... and it applies to young or older travelers from India or Sri Lanka too.

I was talking about guidebooks like Lonely Planet or Le Routard where they give you addresses for restaurants and accommodations

Young people who are 20 today no longer use travel guides—they have all the info on their phones. Otherwise, Lonely Planet has drastically reduced the pages about accommodations and restaurants. It makes sense since, in the internet age, those pages don’t make much sense when you can just search online and get dozens of recent reviews (with photos) for pretty much every hotel and restaurant in a city.

Young people (and the not-so-young, like me) now mostly ask "their" AI to pick accommodations in a given area within a set budget. Anyway, it’s common knowledge that paper guides are way behind when it comes to accommodations—and even more so for restaurants...

The future is that a good third of travelers will disappear along with their jobs due to Artificial Intelligence

Sam Altman and Bill Gates are saying the same thing: the drop in demand will be brutal and lasting—not just for travel—leading to an economic crisis that no one under 97 has ever seen. Not sure Schumpeter’s theories will still apply, and we’ll just watch the trains go by, missing the stagecoaches.

No, but he doesn’t need to feel them; it’s enough to give the illusion that he does.

Sorry, but gadgets and artificial things don’t interest me ;) And I don’t see how a machine can evoke real emotion. A mother holding her child’s hand, yes—ChatGPT, no. A computer is just a tool; since the Bolshevik Revolution, we’ve had the sickle and hammer, meant to represent the working-class soul of the people. It’s wild how Americans can pull something out of nothing—create things ex nihilo.