Concrete changes in how you travel during the crisis
FR

Translated into English.

XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
Oh, you might prefer the official narrative that’s fed to you about the superiority of your current world, but freedom has clearly been in decline—across Europe and pretty much everywhere—since the 1990s.

Tatra, roundabout philosopher.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Tatra, philosophe de rond-point.

"It’s easier to split an atom than a prejudice." A. Einstein

Michel
JU Junolu Regular ·
Ah, you may prefer the official narrative about the superiority of our current world, but freedom has clearly been in decline, in Europe and almost everywhere else, since the 1990s. Michel

I’m far from thinking our current world is superior—superior to what, anyway?—but still... Could you give examples of situations where we’d be significantly less free today than 30 years ago? What freedoms are in decline for us Westerners, individually or collectively? As far as I know, I can go where I want, I can criticize (I’m not talking about insulting or defaming) politicians, judges, religious figures, merchants of all kinds... I can associate with whoever I want, vote for whoever I want, believe or not believe in a god, choose my doctor... As for the 1920s, they saw a lot of precarity and exploitation of workers and employees in post-war France. Peasants weren’t very “free” or happy either. I base this on what I’ve often read and heard. Thanks for shedding some light on this!
« Celui qui voyage sans rencontrer l’autre ne voyage pas, il se déplace » Alexandra David-Neel
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
Don’t you know that what revolutionized women’s lives and gave them freedom appeared in the 1960s? I’m talking about birth control, the arrival of the washing machine, and then May '68. But probably too basic for you, no doubt.
MI MirandaMouse Globetrotter ·
Roissy CDG replaced N.D de Paris, the Bible is the ancestor of the EasyJet catalog.

I prefer Beauvais—it’s more convenient for me!
http://www.lasourisglobe-trotteuse.fr/

Des milliers de photos et plein de conseils d'une souris pour voyager low-cost en Europe et hors des sentiers battus
MI MirandaMouse Globetrotter ·
At all times, people had such miserable lives that they took refuge in religion. This is still the case in many parts of the world today.

Humans weren’t necessarily happier before, and happiness is a relatively recent concept.

We don’t all find happiness in the same things.

Okay, we’re drifting off the original topic here, but since we’ve started, might as well keep going! 🙂

I don’t get the impression that people today are happier than before—in fact, I think it’s quite the opposite!

Happiness isn’t a recent concept at all; ancient Greek philosophers were already talking about it!

As for the idea that we don’t all find happiness in the same things, I completely agree with you! Personally, I certainly don’t find it in religion!

Me neither!

I meant that people found a certain comfort in it. Suffering in this world and being rewarded in the next. That must have prevented a lot of suicides.

As for happiness, let’s just say there was less room for the pursuit of individual happiness, and above all, fewer choices!

People didn’t choose their jobs or whether to have kids, they didn’t divorce (though they could take mistresses—finding lovers was harder!), they just carried their cross.

So I don’t know if they were happier, but maybe less individualistic—it was survival of the fittest back then.

I don’t envy my ancestors, and I also feel sorry for future generations.

But since I only believe in this earthly life, I try to enjoy it in my own way.

If I can’t be useful, at least I try not to harm anyone! My guilty pleasure is traveling by plane. It makes up for my daily life where car trips are rare.
http://www.lasourisglobe-trotteuse.fr/

Des milliers de photos et plein de conseils d'une souris pour voyager low-cost en Europe et hors des sentiers battus
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
Roissy CDG replaced Notre-Dame de Paris, the Bible is the ancestor of the EasyJet catalog.

I prefer Beauvais—it’s more convenient for me!

Okay, so it was from Saint-Pierre Cathedral that we used to take off back in the day 😉.
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
Tatra must be talking about the freedom that Erdogan gives to Turks, no doubt.

Regarding women: Beyond the right to abortion, birth control (1967), in 1975 women gained the right to open a bank account without their husband’s approval, to rent an apartment the same way—these rights opened the door to our freedom as women. So the few exceptions in the 1920s (there were some) were peanuts, but the great Tatra knows the history of the women’s movement well, doesn’t he? 🤪.
Que se vuelva la tortilla
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hello,

Tatra must be talking about the freedom Erdogan gives Turks, no doubt. Regarding women: Beyond the right to abortion, birth control (1967), in 1975 women gained the right to open a bank account without their husband’s consent, to rent an apartment likewise—these rights opened the door to our freedom as women. So those few exceptions in the 1920s (there were some) were peanuts, but great Tatra knows the history of the women’s movement well, doesn’t he? 🤪.

Women had more freedoms in the 1920s than they did afterward in post-war France, but since you’re trapped in a linear conception of progress—that dogma halfway between religion and science that marked the period of the French Revolution—you can’t see it. History, you know, isn’t an objective ribbon of the past we unroll; it’s the story we endlessly rewrite from where we stand and the culture we have. In the 1920s, you built your life freely by breaking away from the weight of village life if it felt oppressive. You changed worlds, places, lives, jobs, families—everything was there to be built, and the horizon of possibilities was far broader than it is today, for women and men alike: artistic or literary creation, political or societal engagement, the ability to reject norms, start a business, innovate... And the chance to start over—new job, new place, new life, adventure. Nowadays, you’re mostly free to be afraid like everyone else, to say the right thing, to make sure you don’t fail to comply with the ocean of rules, norms, and obligations that constrain you for your own good, and to take the free medical tests your health insurance insistently sends you to ensure you die too old and bored.

Michel
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
So there was a breath of freedom after the slaughter in the trenches and the Spanish flu. What do you really know about what people lived through outside of a few privileged circles (how do you know)? And apparently that’s enough for you to say humanity was happy and free before the horror it supposedly plunged into since the 90s? To challenge our clichés and naivety, your arguments still seem pretty childish to me.
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Tatra is Martine. A fairy tale and a sense of wonder at life. A certain kind of life that smells like mothballs and takes plenty of liberties with history and reality—but who cares? What matters is that it’s disruptive and it’s buzzing.

Tatra in the 1920s, Tatra under Erdogan, Tatra in the gulag...

Adorably cute.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Tatra in the 20s, Tatra under Erdogan, Tatra in the gulag... So cute.

Well... As mathematician B. Russell wrote: "In fact, it is in its uncertainty that the value of philosophy largely resides. One who has not grappled with it goes through life like a prisoner: imprisoned by the prejudices of common sense, the beliefs of their country or time, convictions that have grown within them without the cooperation or consent of reason. Everything in the world seems self-evident to them, so much so that things are this way and not another, their horizon is limited, ordinary objects do not question them, and unfamiliar possibilities are dismissed with contempt."

Michel
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
I don’t know if Tatra is a high school philosophy teacher, but if so, he must really contribute to the idea that philosophy is useless (from his cloud, no less).
PO Pondy Veteran ·
I can only speak about what happened in France in the 1920s, and that through my grandmother’s story.

The post-war period was a breath of freedom for her. She was a seamstress at Coco Chanel and went dancing in *guinguettes*.

In old yellowed photos, you can see her in a short Charleston dress striking a pose with a cigarette in an elegant gold cigarette holder. She told me she felt like a suffragette. She shocked her mother by removing her braids coiled over her ears and cutting her hair very short with *accroche-cœurs* on her forehead. When she took the train to Burgundy, she’d drive the family car—a pale yellow and brown Talbot DC—upon arrival because she’d earned her *certificat de capacité*, the precursor to our driver’s license.

She adored Josephine Baker, balls, music, painting, had a crowd of friends to party with, loved jazz and *la musique nègre* as it was called back then, Maurice Chevalier, and also danced the tango much to her mother’s dismay. As a little girl, I loved listening to her, and I thought her life was full of new experiences. A time of carefreeness and regained peace, whose small events from her life as a working-class woman in Paris she shared with me enthusiastically.

She wasn’t privileged—working 10 hours a day in a sewing workshop, living in a maid’s room without heating in a building above a metro entrance—but she felt free and was eager to discover everything.

Anyway, that’s not the point—I’ve completely gone off-topic!
WI Willemspie Globetrotter ·
For happiness, an important factor is confidence in the future. From 1945 until the 1970s, the general belief was that life was going to get better. Today, it's the opposite.

When it comes to freedom, there are opposing ideologies. We see this clearly in the debates here about coronavirus measures. Some prefer individual freedom, while others prioritize collective freedoms. For freedom of expression, I still notice that many films, TV shows, and press articles from the 1970s and 1980s wouldn’t be possible today.
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
Hi Dom,

It was a breath of freedom for everyone, men and women alike. Of course, there were suffragettes who didn’t have the right to vote 😕, so thanks to them for advancing our freedom. For the rest... we still had a long way to go. When I got divorced in 1975, I was asked for my husband’s permission to rent an apartment because I was only separated, and I could open a bank account—it seems the law had just passed. Some freedom, huh? 🏴‍☠️. Sure, I could go dancing, but that didn’t exactly help with daily life. 😉

I’ll leave this off-topic thread now.
Que se vuelva la tortilla
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Tatra to Pondy, Tatra to Pondy, squadron of Zeros in sight at 10 o'clock, roger... Pondy: I see you, I'm coming and I'll take them down...

Well, that's great for your grandmother. My grandmothers, though, were farmers, and it was a much less charming time. They had so little choice that they died in the same village where they were born, in the same social class, and after living the life you could’ve bet they’d have at their birth. Four children, two of whom died from illness in early childhood—enough to drive both of them nearly mad with grief. She steered her own ship in a man’s world as best she could, gnarled like an old oak, worn down by the years, yet she still held on and outlived her husband, who was struck down by a nasty disease that a kind country doctor failed to diagnose and the local healer couldn’t cure. Sure, things were better back then.

Since personal stories are now meant to prove a point—like the cheerful cashier or the doctor who speaks up once the door’s closed—we end up with the Grandmother of the 1920s. Who can deny that the '20s weren’t kind to some people? That they were generally great? Allow me to doubt that *very* strongly.

I’ll add that to live through the '20s and enjoy them, you had to have lived through the Great War, World War II (which we might one day call the Second), or both. Because it’s pretty hard to experience one era while ignoring the ones around it.

What a cheerful little program.

Oh right, I almost forgot—Tatra, JP Sartre in the clear light, chest puffed out, will tell us there’s no freer time than during wars. Damn, we’re doomed again... Caramba, missed the mark once more.
32 321 Veteran ·
My grandmothers were farmers

Were there any Talbot DC 1925s in families back then?
200 jours à pied, seul, sans guide, aux confins du Laos : CLIC
PO Pondy Veteran ·
Hi Din,

Why say "it was better before"? What you’re sharing is really interesting, and I’d love to hear even more about your grandmothers’ rural lives. Life in the countryside—harsh and conservative—was so different from city life, and that’s what makes it fascinating. It’s through countless personal stories that we can get just a tiny glimpse of an era I barely know, beyond books, films, or research...
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Yeah, maybe among the boys' toys or in a photo, possibly.

Otherwise, just a dream for a few more decades (the car).
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
Pondy, do you think your grandma was freer than you? (By the way, working at Coco Chanel in the 1920s isn’t something everyone got to do.)

It’s Tatra who keeps saying things were better before.
LO Louisane Regular ·
Good evening,

In the 1920s, at least in Europe, people were freer, had more possibilities, more reasons to give meaning to their lives, more opportunities to start over if things went wrong, and more anonymity and adventure. It’s not impossible that they were ultimately happier, even though they were deeply influenced by both religion and nationalism.

Michel

You’re definitely talking about a very privileged minority of city-dwellers. And in that case, the range of possibilities and adventure was indeed much broader for them than it is today. Just read Ella Maillart to see that in terms of freedom of movement and morals, things were better than today for some women—a very small minority. But for the vast majority of peasants in France, their world was often limited to their village, their work, and their family. They made do with what they had, and that might actually be a recipe for happiness... The peasants who left or immigrated did theoretically have far more opportunities, but in practice, they often did so to survive or feed their families, like migrants—far from the freedom to choose or the search for meaning.
Tout ce qui a été perdu dans la plaine, tu le retrouveras dans les montagnes. Proverbe géorgien.
MA Masterpo Globetrotter ·
Sure, it was better before.

I’m like you—I can’t even understand how some people can say something so outrageous. And what’s this ‘it’ they’re talking about? We’re still living better today than at any time before: overall, more comfort, better quality of life, more safety, more freedoms (I said *overall*). But maybe we’re at a turning point, some kind of peak.

Sartre in the clear

Oh, nice.
PO Pondy Veteran ·
Pondy, do you think your grandmother was freer than you? (By the way, working at Coco Chanel in the 1920s wasn’t something everyone did.)

It’s Tatra who keeps saying things were better before.

Going off-topic for the sake of it!

As a very young woman, my grandmother moved to Paris to try her luck. With her father’s approval but not her mother’s. She found a job as a maid in a wealthy household that very evening. One night out, she was dancing at a *guinguette* and hit it off with the head of a workshop at Chanel, which had several ateliers in Paris. That’s how my grandmother became a *petite-main*. She sewed perfectly. And for the anecdote, I framed the finely pleated and embroidered romper my father wore—it’s really lovely.

To answer your question: “Was my grandmother freer than me?” I have no idea; she considered herself free and lived freely.

I think society hadn’t yet confused need and desire.

And while comfort exists at every level today, I’m overwhelmed by the pressure to think, buy, and consume a certain way. I have to weigh my words and bend to a host of new obligations. I’m swamped with messages of all kinds—from “eat 5 fruits and vegetables a day” to “protect yourself, protect others,” etc. I’m fed up with prevention campaigns, fed up with moralizing speeches, fed up with this culture of command as if my life, if I didn’t listen, were surrounded by dangers.

So yes, I’m free—but mostly to think as I please.
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Even though comfort exists at every level today, I’m overwhelmed by the demands to think, buy, and consume—I have to weigh my words and bend to a host of new obligations. I’m swamped by messages of all kinds, from "eat 5 fruits and vegetables a day" to "protect yourself, protect others," and so on. I’m fed up with prevention campaigns, fed up with moralizing speeches, fed up with these instructional commands as if my life, if I didn’t listen, were surrounded by dangers.

So it wasn’t better before, but it *was* better before. A fan of "at the same time." Being a good mother, a loving and respectful wife, knowing how to do laundry, sew, not vote, obey and respect all authority, be the guardian of the home, and stay out of everything else... That was life for most women.

You’re feeling overwhelmed right now, but it seems to me you’ve got the critical and intellectual tools to free yourself from these so-called demands, right? So what’s the problem?

Before, most people didn’t have a choice at all.

The "it was better before" mindset is a gateway to bitterness and nostalgia. Two words/ills that are very much present today too.
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
Even though comfort exists at every level today, I’m overwhelmed by the constant demands to think, buy, and consume. I have to weigh my words and submit to a host of new obligations. I’m swamped by messages of all kinds—from "eat 5 fruits and vegetables a day" to "protect yourself, protect others." I’m fed up with prevention campaigns, fed up with moralizing speeches, fed up with this culture of commandments as if my life, if I didn’t listen, were surrounded by dangers.

You mean we’re being infantilized. Comfort infantilizes, and I think a lot of people have dreamed—or still dream—of being treated like children their whole lives.

The demands you’re talking about never get to me personally. In my opinion, you need a certain zone of carefreeness and tranquility—which some might call a luxury (boom, more morality)—to make space for them. How awful to hear the same old "eat 5 fruits and vegetables a day" drilled into us... the terrible slavery of modern times...🤪 (I bet generations of actual slaves are rolling in their graves if they hear this kind of complaint)
PO Pondy Veteran ·
Even though comfort exists at every level today, I’m overwhelmed by the injunctions to think, to buy, to consume—I have to weigh my words and bend to a host of new obligations. I’m swamped by messages of all kinds, from "eat 5 fruits and vegetables a day" to "protect yourself, protect others," etc. I’m fed up with prevention campaigns, fed up with moralizing speeches, fed up with these instructional commands as if my life, if I didn’t listen, was surrounded by dangers.

So it wasn’t better before, but it was better before. A fan of "at the same time." Being a good mother, a loving and respectful woman, knowing how to do laundry, sew, not vote, obey and respect all authority, be the guardian of the home and abstain from the rest... That was the life of most women.

You’re overwhelmed now, but it seems to me you’ve received the critical and intellectual tools to free yourself from these so-called injunctions, right? So what’s the problem?

Before, the majority didn’t have the shadow of a choice.

The "it was better before" is the door to bitterness and nostalgia. Two words/ills that are very current too.

Yes, life was hard and rough. Mortality was rampant. Fleming hadn’t yet discovered antibiotics. Women aborted with knitting needles and parsley stems and often died. The war had left thousands of widows struggling to survive.

There’s no such thing as that famous "at the same time" and "it was better before" you’re talking about. It was different, that’s all.

What has fundamentally changed isn’t the notion of happiness—a feeling unique to each individual—but the notion we no longer talk about: joy, which is an emotion.

The joy that’s never mentioned: the joy of living, of flourishing, of rejoicing, of feeling the fullness of the moment.

And when everyone lives in their own corner, the joy that comes from feeling connected no longer exists. Living in your own corner means limiting contact, parties, gatherings, setting up remote work, etc.

The simple joy of passing days that no one talks about anymore, as if everything were serious, grave, guilt-inducing, worrying.
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
I totally agree about the diversity of lives and that it makes more sense to think things were different rather than better or worse.

As for joy, I don’t know. How do you even measure that over the years?

I think a lot of older people—and really, people from every era—are just killjoys.

So it’s hard to be joyful, no matter the time period.

Let’s just enjoy the moment we’re living in and let our grandmothers have lived the way they did. And let’s not listen to the killjoys...
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
Pondy, you give us an almost idyllic account of your grandmother’s youth and life in the 1920s. From what I understand, she achieved emancipation thanks to her move to Paris and her work.

But despite everything, she wasn’t equal to men. I can imagine the frustration.

That carefree and superficial world of the 1920s, which may have existed, certainly shattered against the crisis and the Second World War.

Now, it’s my turn to tell you about a rewarding relationship I have with a lady born in 1920. She talks to me about her youth and her mother. And two expressions often come up in her stories: "poor Maman" and "you had to toe the line," which were tied to those years. For her, women were trapped in a rigid framework due to class differences, social norms, unspoken rules, their lack of place in society, and difficult family relationships. I could ask her which era she preferred—1920s, 1960s, or 2200s—but she’d only talk about her happy early childhood, and that’s it.
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
I completely agree with you. It was indeed a minority, because few women had the right to speak up—the laws were made by men and for men. No possibility to vote, and therefore no possibility to run in elections, and there were no exceptions: all women were affected, whether emancipated or not.
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
In 1920, in cities, did women in all French cities have financial freedom? Because all independence starts with money. And freedom from a spouse, submission. A little objectivity instead of naivety would be useful.
LE Lecoeurestun Veteran ·
I don’t know if it’s better now or if it was better before. Today, there’s a lot of psychological suffering. I’m not saying there wasn’t any before, but only those who could afford it went to see someone about it. The less fortunate were so overwhelmed by their circumstances that they probably didn’t have the time to reflect like we do now. Besides, introspection isn’t necessarily time we choose to take. We’d rather rush through everything (shopping, traveling—though travel *can* be a source of introspection—racing from theater to concert venues just to distract ourselves).
Nathalie
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hello,

You know, back in the 1920s, young women who left their countryside—without any regrets, by the way—to work in the city truly found freedom and fulfillment. If the boss wasn’t a good fit, you’d ask for your pay and have another job the next day. People weren’t as stuck in situations as they are now; you’d turn the page, start over somewhere else, head to the other side of the world with someone... Even in late 19th-century France, there wasn’t this obsession with security, guarantees, or protection that we have today. Life was more adventurous, worries were more relative... It’s not absurd at all to think people were happier back then.

Now? Without identity, without religion, without nation, without struggle, plugged into the madness of media-driven fears and with no way to feel alive, people in the early 21st century probably don’t have many admirers.

Michel
JU Junolu Regular ·
Are you really that unhappy about it?
« Celui qui voyage sans rencontrer l’autre ne voyage pas, il se déplace » Alexandra David-Neel
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
I completely agree with you. It was indeed a minority, because few women had the right to speak, laws were made by men and for men. They couldn’t vote, so they couldn’t run in elections, and there were no exceptions—all women were affected, whether emancipated or not.

Personally, I struggle to take voting very seriously, and I find the idea of a calling for politics even less appealing—whether it’s a man or a woman doesn’t matter to me.

But most of all, I think you’re focusing on facades, on the way history has been presented to you: women have always had power, more than people care to admit. In the Middle Ages, for example... And more recently, in many expressions of our societies—rural, maritime.

Michel
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
But above all, I think you're sticking to facades, to ways history has been presented to you: women have always had power, more than people care to admit.

It’s like the Turkish journalists in prison—we’re wrong to stop at prejudices.

How awful to read what you’re saying about women’s power. Not being equal to your husband or brother when it comes to voting—you have a strange response... democratic voting isn’t that important.

About the impossibility of having a bank account, do you have an answer like that?

About the impossibility of defending yourself against abuses within the "marital duty," do you have highly philosophical responses that leave us speechless?
EA Eaglefoot Veteran ·
But above all, I think you're sticking to facades, to ways history has been presented to you: women have always had power, more than people care to admit. In the Middle Ages, for example... And closer to us in many expressions of our societies, rural, maritime. Michel

Basically, women got the right to vote much later than men, but to you that doesn’t mean much of anything serious?

If women have always had power, can you give me some notable examples of how they’ve used it? For instance, in what situations have they banned an activity for men? At what times have they been able to control their own bodies as men have?...
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
You have a way too linear and Cartesian view of history. Women were running everything behind the scenes.

I think Tatra’s butcher told him that the other day, so it must be true.
EA Eaglefoot Veteran ·
a submarine that hasn't surfaced yet! 😎
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Basically, women got the right to vote long after men, but for you that doesn’t mean much of anything serious? If women have always had power, can you name a few notable ways they’ve used it? For example, in what situations have they banned an activity for men? At what times have they been able to control their own bodies as equally as men?...

Looks like I’m inspiring you.

No, the right to vote has a long history—it’s always been subject to criteria: status, wealth, category... Limited to citizens, or based on income... These days, it’s still denied to foreign residents without raising your objections, I believe.

Personally, I rarely use it and don’t attach much importance to it. Plus, it’s mostly become a consumer product: we vote for one to get rid of the other, then later for a third to get back at the second for the disappointments they caused. There’s nothing in that resembling real projects or programs.

As for the rest of your point...

I don’t know much about Latin France, but in the rural or coastal Brittany I knew, women often held the power: controlling the purse strings, driver’s licenses, decisions on education, housing, investments, and real estate purchases. Fishermen husbands, even captains, would come back from sea only to be denied entry to the living room without slippers and sent off for a drink with the cash slipped to them for the evening. As for farmers, often it was mopeds or tractors for them—only the wife had the car license. You didn’t need a bank account in your name to call the shots back then.

When it came to controlling their own bodies, women have always found ways to have abortions, and I truly believe we’ve never had less control over our bodies than in today’s world.

Michel
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
Just one reply about how women have always had the power...

When you read this cliché, this tired old statement, you realize women still have a long way to go to achieve real equality. It’s not some random guy saying this—at a push, you could forgive that—but someone who flaunts their knowledge all over the forum with endless quotes. Someone who teaches and even questions the usefulness of voting. In short, a caricature.
Que se vuelva la tortilla
ZE Zezettedez Regular ·
Hold the fire, the capercaillie is back
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Only one response about the woman who has always had the power.... When you read this commonplace, this hackneyed assertion, you tell yourself that women still have their work cut out for them to achieve true equality. It’s not some Bidochon saying this—at a push, you could forgive that—but someone who flaunts their knowledge all over the forum with various quotes. Someone who teaches and even questions the usefulness of voting. In short, a caricature.

I’ve never been in favor of equality, which is an absurd concept that ancient philosophers already criticized, but rather for equity, "geometric" justice, if you will. Women very often held a great deal of power, in fact—even in the medieval world. I suggest you check out this, for example.

Michel
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
....... When it comes to controlling our own bodies, women have always had abortions, and I truly believe we’ve never had less control over our bodies than in today’s world......
Que se vuelva la tortilla
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
....... As for having control over one's body, women have always had abortions, and I truly believe we've never had so little control over our bodies as we do in today's world......states Tatra. There are things you just can't let slide—Tatra’s trying to shove a knitting needle up your nose. In the c........and you’ll see how "pleasant" it was to have an abortion, and I’m being polite. When I think of all the horrors poured onto Simone Weil for defending the law, I never imagined we’d still be reading this kind of nonsense today.

Having control over one’s body is a broader issue than just abortion: generally speaking, we have less control over it than before, and it seems hard to deny that. But of course, women had abortions—they risked accidents doing it, but they did it, and in large numbers.

Michel
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
Yes, even the prisoner—contrary to stereotypes—has full control over their body. They can slit their wrists, hang themselves, etc... It’s tough fighting against preconceived ideas, huh...
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
Michel,

Do whatever you want with your body, go wild, but leave women alone and go play in your own sandbox.

I almost feel sorry for you, all shriveled up behind your keyboard, rehashing nonsense while name-dropping philosophers (that’s what’s really annoying). You must be really unhappy.

This is my last message to you.
Que se vuelva la tortilla
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
Even though a prisoner has to secretly get razor blades or rope. Meanwhile, women were encouraged to keep knitting needles at home... as long as they weren't varnished, mind you...
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
Because you think😉 that in the 1920s women were *that* happy at work? Here’s an example: a young woman on her hands and knees polishing the floor. The boss had enormous power and enjoyed belittling people.

Your "nowadays," I gather you’ve got quite a bit to put up with.
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
😉😉😉 That's a good one....
Que se vuelva la tortilla

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