Concrete changes in how you travel during the crisis
FR

Translated into English.

PO Poste42 Veteran ·
And here we go, we😉 travel back in time, straight to the Middle Ages. I hope you're well-versed on the subject. You just keep stating your truths and counter-truths without any arguments. "Women have always had power"—small powers, and by proxy. In our towns, most street names are named after men—what does that tell you, in your opinion? Let me name a woman who had an influence on the history of Brittany and France: Duchess Anne of Brittany. Now it's your turn—name some others. They're not exactly legion.
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
"They were doing it massively"—do you have any figures to back up what you're saying, since it was clandestine and therefore, in my opinion, there are no figures?
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Oh, why get worked up? Tatra’s just playing a game. The guy who acts like a clown at parties, spouting whatever nonsense makes him seem mysterious and different. The more absurd it gets, the harder he’ll push to defend even the most ridiculous theories.

You do the same as Tatra—I suggest we play along too. Here’s one of mine: Child labor: a guaranteed path to fulfillment and the ultimate cure for childhood obesity.

We’ll never top the original, but we can always try. Plus, there are some nights when I’m just bored too.
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
Hi Marie Anne,

It seems to me there’s no way to have a discussion with Tatra. In the end, we’re giving him more importance than he deserves, considering how little he knows about issues affecting women. His only arguments are clichés that have been repeated for decades. I never thought I’d read such nonsense on VF.
Que se vuelva la tortilla
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
I agree with you—lack of openness to the world is terrible when you travel a lot and often. Not communicating with him anymore? No, because on certain topics, I won’t accept just anything. This is the second issue—the first being the lack of courage among Bretons, and this one concerning women.
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
I don’t get the feeling it’s all that mysterious, since he shares a lot about himself—you just have to read between the lines.
HA Hannahannah Globetrotter ·
I’ll admit, this dinosaur is a bit much for me.

I bet he could come up with philosophical arguments about the best way to peel potatoes and prove it’s easier to do it with a dessert spoon than a knife 😉

What’s really serious is this discourse that puts women down, repeated over and over in posts—please address the issue.
Que se vuelva la tortilla
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
I think giving him importance and getting worked up are his satisfactions, troll-style. He could argue learnedly that the wheel torture or being drawn and quartered would be preferable to a stay at La Santé. That the condition of a medieval serf or a slave in Egypt is preferable to that of a free man today. And it never ends.

Play his game and throw in your own arguments for fun, Brazilian-style, or just let it slide like we used to say back home. The good old days.
MA Mariecurry Globetrotter ·
Women very often held a large share of power, in fact—even in the medieval world. I suggest this, for example.

Hi Michel,

The work you’ve shared focuses on the role of certain women in the medieval urban world, which was far less populated than the countryside at the time. For a fair balance, you’d also need to include studies on the status of women in rural areas during the Middle Ages. ;) In my humble opinion, throughout the history of our regions, the only woman who can truly claim to have enjoyed real power and an enviable status is the Celtic woman.
CH Choucarde Globetrotter ·
I’m quoting the name of a woman who had an influence on the history of Brittany and France: Duchess Anne of Brittany.

Yes, she notably helped civilize the French Court, which until then was still quite barbaric. She introduced women, music, and the art of dining—including cutlery for eating! Among other things.

From my region, I’d also mention Joséphine Pencalet and, behind her, the women of the factories—the Sardinières. For this era, there’s a song covered by two excellent Breton singers: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xih1ad

From the Roaring Twenties, there’s Berthe Sylva and Fréhel.

And for what Mariecurry mentioned 😉, there’s Boudicca, to start with.
Choucarde
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Good evening,

Back already? :)

The studies you present focus on the role of certain women in the medieval urban world, which was far less populated than the countryside at the same time. For a fair balance, you should also offer us studies on the condition of women in rural areas during the Middle Ages. ;) In my humble opinion, throughout the history of our regions, the only one who can boast of having enjoyed real power and an enviable status is the Celtic woman.

I’m not so sure that the urban/rural distinction is such a relevant axis. The Celtic woman is the one about whom literature explicitly mentioned matriarchy—was she really an exception? To be seen. As I clearly said earlier, I’m not very familiar with Latin culture, and it doesn’t come naturally to me, neither in my memories, nor in my references, nor in my imagination.

Michel
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Good evening,

Oh, why get worked up? Tatra is playing a game. The guy who acts like a clown at parties, spouting nonsense just to come off as mysterious and different. The more absurd it is, the more he’ll double down to defend even the most ridiculous theories. You too—play along like Tatra, and I’ll suggest one: Child labor: a guaranteed fulfillment and the ultimate cure for childhood obesity. We’ll never top the original, but we can always try. Plus, there are nights when I’m bored too.

I don’t need your indulgence or approval to work every day with an audience that’s more open-minded and less clingy to prejudices, all with the institution’s backing. I’m not bored—I just spend a little time on VF, which I really enjoy, for fun.

Have a good evening.

Michel
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
" they were doing it massively " do you have any figures to back up what you're claiming, since it was clandestine, so I don’t think there are any numbers in my opinion.

Women have been having abortions since antiquity, massively, using traditional medicinal plants or more invasive practices. Contraception has also been practiced forever; and you’d be surprised to know that Chinese women still have knowledge in this area that has been lost in the West. It’s estimated that in the mid-1960s, there were 800,000 abortions per year in France. Clandestine, of course; so what?

Michel
SA Sawadeebaht Regular ·
There you go, my poor Tatra, it was better before—because back then, you wouldn’t have been so vilified by all those hypocrites. These days, all it takes is stating a few obvious truths to get torched by the green-and-pink thought police, the ones wallowing in lies and making us all lose our minds.
Toujours une fois. Au moins.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Because you think that in the 1920s women were *that* happy in their jobs? Here’s an example: a young woman on her hands and knees polishing the floor. The boss had enormous power and enjoyed belittling them. Your "currently" makes me think you’re putting up with quite a bit.

... Back then, if a boss had a good employee, he’d pay her to stay and not ask for time off. And if there was any trouble, employees would leave *very* easily. From what I know, young Breton women at the time moved en masse to the city, where they found a better life, real freedom, and new opportunities. I’m not convinced that, all things being equal, the same holds true today.

Michel
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
cqfd my poor Tatra, it was better before—because before, you wouldn’t have been so vilified by all those hypocrites. These days, all it takes is stating a few well-founded truths to get torched by the green-and-pink conformists, the ones wallowing in lies and making us walk on our heads.

No big deal.

Michel
MA Mariecurry Globetrotter ·
Back already?

Just dropping by to say hi.

I’m not so sure that the urban/rural divide is such a relevant factor.

This isn’t about setting up a showdown between city women and country women in the Middle Ages. It’s just pointing out that your response is biased from the start: the studies mentioned above focus on (some) women living in urban areas, while the vast majority of the medieval population remained rural.

I made it very clear earlier that I barely know Latin, and it doesn’t come naturally to me—neither in my memories, my references, nor my imagination.

? Didn’t get that.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
You're assuming the urban/rural distinction makes sense when talking about medieval Europe. I don’t know. Do you?

I’m explaining that the Latin world is pretty foreign to me.

Michel
MA Mariecurry Globetrotter ·
You're assuming the urban/rural distinction makes sense when talking about medieval Europe. I don't know. Do you?

It seems obvious when you've been digging around city centers / rural fields for 30 years. This distinction has made sense since the appearance of Celtic oppida. There you go...

What was the original topic of this discussion again? 😏
MI MirandaMouse Globetrotter ·
I’m responding in general terms here.

I don’t think there’s ever been a time when most people were truly happy.

And the 1920s were sandwiched between two devastating wars—so there’s that!

Maybe the *Trente Glorieuses*?

My grandparents never experienced unemployment; we talked about it. Their standard of living was rising, and so were social rights (my grandmother was a union activist). They felt sorry for my generation.

From my perspective, there were other problems back then.

I don’t envy any era, and I don’t have any faith in the future.

You just do what you can with the time you’ve got.
http://www.lasourisglobe-trotteuse.fr/

Des milliers de photos et plein de conseils d'une souris pour voyager low-cost en Europe et hors des sentiers battus
CH Choucarde Globetrotter ·
Hi Marie-Anne,

The wind’s picked up here and some shutters have been banging—autumn’s starting with a bang! I’m sitting here with a hot chocolate and this discussion’s gone off-topic!

I don’t know about other regions in France, but for Brittany, here’s something to read about the place of women and the Breton matriarchy through wars, religion, and—at one point—a secular state also run by male chauvinists, oh yes! It’s the thesis of a young woman and student who ran for Queen of Cornouaille in 2019, and the second link is her interview:

http://www.eostiged.com/images/contenu/Dossier_Erell_Reine.pdf

http://www.eostiged.com/actualites/229-interview-reine-erell

Otherwise, there’s Anne Guillou’s book on the subject—see here, the 3rd book in the list: https://www.skolvreizh.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&manufacturer_id=97&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3

Happy reading! 🙂
Choucarde
XY Xyz999 Veteran ·
I don’t need your indulgence or approval to work, every day, with an audience that’s more open and less clingy to prejudices, with the institution’s approval.

What’s your audience like? People who are "open" or just easily influenced? (I guess it’s pretty easy for a teacher to build little fan clubs.) Your self-satisfaction reminds me of Zemmour’s little smirk—he’s done well in the revisionist game too.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hello...

It seems obvious when you’ve been digging around the basements of city centers / the basements of fields for 30 years. This distinction has made sense since the appearance of Celtic oppida. There you go... What was the original topic of this discussion, by the way?? 😏

We’ve strayed far from the original theme, but the current one isn’t uninteresting. It seems to me that drawing a line between urban and rural across millennia without accounting for the industrial revolutions of the 18th/19th centuries or the agricultural revolutions of the 20th century, among other things, doesn’t make much sense.

Michel
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Ah, finally Sancho Panza comes trotting along to rescue our local windmill fighter...

cqfd my poor Tatra, it was better before, because back then you wouldn’t have been so vilified by all those hypocrites.

Really? And who invented the term "hypocrite"? That was centuries ago, when they apparently weren’t vilifying anyone—how lovely. Everyone was so nice, clouds were made of cotton candy, and rivers flowed with rosewater... Life was so much better.

These days, all it takes is stating a few well-worn truths

Which ones, exactly? Because they don’t seem so obvious to us green and pink/red plebeians. Was it better in the 1920s than now? Is it better under Erdogan than in France? Is a gulag better than a retirement home?

Those are opinions, sure. But self-evident truths? Hardly. Are you Hibernatus, pining for the days before you were frozen, or what?

the green and pink "right-thinking" crowd,

No red? How colorful you see the world—it’s almost charming. Personally, I’ll take green, pink, or even blue over gray-green or brown.
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
I totally agree. In any case—and this is obvious—we can’t go back, and we can only live in the era we’re in...

Going back to the past, reading Maupassant is enough to get a chronicle of life and realize that living wasn’t exactly a walk in the park back then. Beyond our current impressions and later rewrites.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Going back to the past, Maupassant’s readings are enough to get a chronicle of life and realize that living wasn’t a walk in the park back then. Beyond today’s impressions and later rewritings.

I’m not sure if you could find a worse example than a naturalist writer like Maupassant, who claimed his status as follows: "talented Realists should rather be called illusionists." (Preface to *Pierre et Jean*).

Michel
LE Lecoeurestun Veteran ·
I’m not addressing you, Michel, but everyone (I don’t know how to reply to myself: HELP). It sounds like a surrealist game. It makes me laugh because it happens often. The original topic disappears, and we end up talking about the past and the present. But I like it. Actually, that’s how it usually goes. I enjoy verbal sparring (there are plenty of people showing off their knowledge, and it all seems obscure to me), but it’d be better to aim higher—without aggression, if possible? There are conflicts of ideas but also conflicts between people. Tatra crystallizes all the aggression, but maybe he provokes it? (It doesn’t seem to bother you, Michel, but I’d be devastated.)
Nathalie
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
I don’t know if you could find a worse example than a naturalist writer like Maupassant, who claimed his status as follows: "talented Realists should rather be called illusionists." (Preface to *Pierre et Jean*).

One day he also said: It’s cold this morning, don’t forget your light sweater (citation). Basically, Maupassant—the worst example if you ask me. You’re the global benchmark for literature and for tossing out random one-liners without much point or connection. Long live Google.

Anyway, when you’ve made systematic contradiction your whole system, you couldn’t expect much better. My arms can’t drop any lower at this point.

Put in a little effort, and you’ll outgrow the age of "no"...
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
One day he also said: It's cold this morning, don't forget your warm layer (citation) Basically Maupassant, the worst example if you ask me. You're the world reference in literature and in throwing out random phrases without much point or connection. Long live Google.

I don’t need Google—I’ve often used this passage in my professional work. And the fact that you picked the best counterexample had a funny side I couldn’t resist. 🙂

Anyway, when you’ve made systematic contradiction your system, you couldn’t expect anything better. My arms can’t fall any lower at this point. A little effort and you’ll outgrow the age of "no"...

I have the weakness of reacting when I read nonsense—old habits die hard.

Michel
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
I can't help but react when I read nonsense—old habits die hard.

Rereading your messages must be pretty painful, and your keyboard must be itching...
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
Tatra crystallizes all the aggression but maybe he provokes it?

It seems to me that by being provocative and aggressive toward participants, you invite that kind of response.

There are members who get a lot of flak for travel advice or a casual remark, and we’re never quite sure why. But when you’re being provocative, you can’t really complain if there’s debate. That’s just how the forum works. As long as there are no insults or crossing red lines, I don’t see much to criticize in Tatra or other contributors.

Otherwise, you’d have to start your own blog and disable comments.
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
Hi there. I discovered the story of the Penn sardine workers through the TV movie that aired a few years ago. Thanks for the details with the song and photos. The world of work has always been tough, yesterday just like today.

You might know the song paying tribute to Anne of Brittany, *Si mors à mors*.
LE Lecoeurestun Veteran ·
I wasn’t criticizing. It’s just an observation, and it’s normal to defend your ideas—as long as, like you said, you don’t cross the line, which is far from obvious since those lines shift from person to person.
Nathalie
RO Rotsaka Globetrotter ·
For me, the limits are those of moderation. And kindness first and foremost.

If it stings repeatedly and deliberately with no ambiguity, then I’ll step in for a discussion. And if it’s with Tatra, for example, or on sensitive topics, I know it’s going to clash a bit and that I’ll take a few hits—and that’s normal. If it’s clear insults, racism, antisemitism, etc., well, I’ll report it, and it’ll be up to the mods to decide.

Same goes for the messages I post—I’m careful and try my best not to step out of bounds, but I know that in the heat of the moment, things can spill over. We’re human. And in those cases, I trust the moderation team if I’m flagged. No problem.

At the same time, I think a lot of us on this forum are craving travel discussions. And, like me, many have turned to other, less structured conversations that are more "outside of travel in the strict sense." That’s where the extra conflict comes from—it’s obviously easier to argue over values or ideas than over the price of a beer in Utrecht or the quality of the bedding in a hotel in Ulaanbaatar.
EA Eaglefoot Veteran ·
Basically, women got the right to vote much later than men, but for you, that doesn’t mean much of anything serious? If women have always had power, can you name a few notable ways they’ve used it? For example, in what situations have they banned an activity for men? At what times have they been able to control their own bodies as equally as men?...

Looks like I’m inspiring you.

No, the right to vote has a long history—it’s always been subject to criteria: status, wealth, category... Suffrage reserved for citizens, or based on income... Nowadays, it’s still denied to foreign residents without sparking your disapproval, I believe.

Personally, I rarely use it and don’t attach much importance to it. Plus, it’s mostly become a consumer object: we vote for one to get rid of the other, then later for a third to avenge the disappointments the second caused us. There’s nothing there that resembles projects or programs.

As for the rest of your point...

I don’t know much about Latin France, but in the rural or coastal Brittany I knew, women often held the power: controlling the purse strings, driver’s licenses, decisions on education, housing, investments, and real estate purchases. Fishermen husbands, even captains, would return from sea only to be denied entry to the living room without slippers and sent off for a drink with the money slipped to them for the evening. As for farmers, often it was the moped or tractor—only the wife had the car license. No need to have a bank account in her name to have a say in choices and decisions back then.

When it comes to controlling their bodies, women have always had abortions, and I truly believe we’ve never had less control over our bodies than in today’s world.

Michel

As I expected, you couldn’t cite a single notable use of this so-called women’s power! It’s telling that the only “ban” imposed on men was being denied access to the living room without slippers. Women’s power was only what men were willing to grant them. And as for the bank account, it’s a very male way of thinking to assume they didn’t need one.

Having secret abortions and risking your life isn’t what I’d call controlling your own body. And in this area, we could add rape, which was long under- or unpunished, brothels where the women were practically slaves, the loss of female virginity often meaning social ostracization (ask your 20-year-old Breton girls about that).

PS: The right to vote *should* be granted to foreign residents—no issue with that. What about you?

I have the weakness of reacting when I read nonsense. Can’t help myself. Michel

If you ever run out of things to react to, feel free to reread your own posts. 😇
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hello,

As I expected, you haven’t been able to cite any notable use of the so-called power of women! It’s telling that the only "ban" imposed on men was access to the lounge without slippers. The power of women was only what men were willing to grant them. As for the bank account, it’s a very male way of thinking to assume they didn’t need one.

To be honest, I don’t understand your demand. What exactly are you talking about?

Having an abortion in secret and risking your life isn’t really what I’d call having control over your body. And in this area, we could also add rape, which was long under- or unpunished, brothels where the residents were practically slaves, and female virginity, whose loss often meant being cut off from society (ask your young Breton women in their 20s about that).

Yes, it *is* a way of having control over your body, of course. And it’s *you* saying it was done in secret—everyone knew about it.

PS: The right to vote should be granted to foreign residents—no problem with that, and you?

I couldn’t care less.

Michel
EA Eaglefoot Veteran ·
To be honest, I don’t understand your demand. What are you referring to?

For demands, take it up with a judge—this is just a casual exchange.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
To be honest, I don’t understand your demand. What are you referring to?

For demands, take it up with a judge—this is just a simple exchange

You’re ordering me about I don’t even know what for... I’ve given you plenty of areas where, in my experience, my observations, and my references, women are the decision-makers and influencers: real estate, legal transactions, major purchases, children’s education, budget management, organizing family events. If you find that insignificant, that’s your call.

Michel
EA Eaglefoot Veteran ·
It was estimated that in the mid-1960s, there were 800,000 abortions per year in France. Illegal, of course; so what?

Dig deeper into the mortality rates of those illegal abortions, and you’ll have your answer to that "so what?"

Right now, you’re mostly free to be afraid like everyone else, to say the right thing, to make sure you don’t fail to comply with the ocean of rules, norms, and obligations that constrain you for your own good, and to take the free medical tests that your health insurance keeps pushing on you to ensure you die too old and bored.

It’s clear you’re actually talking about yourself here! You remind me of those pseudo-nonconformists who are everywhere these days, amusing or riling up (depending on who you ask) the crowd by projecting their fears and lack of confidence. A pretty tame herd in the end, one that could fit the "useful idiots" label falsely attributed to Lenin. But where does this such a dark view of the world come from? (The answer "I’m not pessimistic, I’m realistic" doesn’t fly—it’s been overused.)
EA Eaglefoot Veteran ·
I’ve pointed out plenty of areas where women, in my experience, my observations, and my references, are the decision-makers and influencers: real estate, legal transactions, big purchases, children’s education, budget management, organizing family events. If you think that’s insignificant, that’s your call.

Michel

You forgot the ban on walking in the living room without slippers and the right to drive a car! Your "experience" is actually a pretty male-centric and somewhat old-school perspective!
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
you forgot the ban on the living room without slippers and the right to drive a car! Your "experience" is actually a very male and quite reactionary perspective!

Men often didn’t have a driver’s license back then. As for the slippers, it’s just a figure of speech. In reality, sailors’ wives often banned their husbands from certain rooms. And the husbands were often quite happy to head back out to sea after three days.

Michel
VO Voyajou Globetrotter ·
Tatra is playing a game. The guy who acts like a clown at parties, spouting nonsense just to come off as someone different

It’d be reassuring to think this is just a pose or some marketing angle, but I’m not so sure. The last time I read someone who, in one breath, challenged a cornerstone of modern democracy while also claiming Western women have it worse today than yesterday, it was from Tariq Labstinan (or something like that—his go-to authority on these issues was Iran).

What shocks and disappoints me is that after these outbursts—and with one notable exception who calls it out—people just carry on chatting about their grandma, their digs, or their duchess. I’d be curious to hear what the delightful Caro&Coco thinks about this. 😇
MA Mathews Globetrotter ·
Contraception has also been practiced since time immemorial; and you’d be surprised to learn that Chinese women still possess knowledge in this area that has been lost in the West.

A question’s been nagging at me: will this whole situation change how you travel during the crisis?

Men often didn’t have a driver’s license.

What about a pilot’s license?

And soon we’ll need a license just to ride an e-scooter...
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hi there,

One thing’s been nagging me—is this going to change how you travel during the crisis?

It’s made me use my car more, yeah. And visit countries with reasonable restrictions. Didn’t I already say that?

Michel
MA Mathews Globetrotter ·
Haven't I already written this?

Sorry, my bad...
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Good evening my dear Jean Luc,

You’d be quite disappointed if I didn’t reply, and since I’ve got a few minutes to dash off a few lines and dot the i’s.

The last time I read someone who, in one fell swoop, challenged one of the pillars of modern democracy while also considering the condition of Western women to be less enviable today than yesterday, it was under the keyboard of Tariq Labstinan (or something like that; his absolute reference on these issues was Iran).

Consumerist universal suffrage, where everyone votes according to their passions, grudges, or interests, has nothing to do with the principles of democracy—neither modern nor ancient. So as it stands, it doesn’t exactly fill me with naive enthusiasm. Is that a problem? When it comes to the condition of women, I’ll sign on to the cause as soon as it distances itself from Marxist postulates.

Michel
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
"Banter" really? That word isn't appropriate at all. With Choucarde, we talked about the Duchess Anne, as she was a woman who left her mark on history. And sometimes, you just need to lighten the atmosphere.
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
"Marxist postulates"—I’ll tell you right away that I don’t feel targeted or concerned by your statement at all. On the contrary, I feel completely objective, with no connection to any political ideas you’re implying.
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Good evening,

"Marxist postulates" I’ll tell you right away that I don’t feel targeted or concerned by your statement at all—I actually feel completely objective, nothing to do with any political ideas you’re implying

I won’t tease you by pointing out that Marxism *does* aim to be scientific, materialist, and objective—that’s literally its whole purpose. My point was to highlight the power and class dynamics that feminist arguments often imply.

Michel
PO Poste42 Veteran ·
Goal: you add this to suit your needs. You’ve got some pretty old-school ideas—been a while since I’ve heard those!

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