No, I Won’t Be Going Back to China

Apart from the suckers who still think young Chinese women talk to them for their good looks, I don’t see who gets scammed by the tea ceremony in China 😏 Every time, it’s the same guys who get lured into hostess bars by 20-year-old girls while they’re pushing 50

Anyway, let’s get serious again.

Plus, it’s a scam as old as it is well-known, and it’s hardly practiced anywhere except Tiananmen Square in Beijing—I read one single account of it happening in Shanghai, never anywhere else.

And apparently the same scam is still happening in Paris, but with champagne... It’s classier, though, isn’t it? 😏

Yeah, just one post from a member who joined the same day they wrote this...

Okay, let’s get serious now 😉

For my part, I’ve been to China six times and I really hope to go back! Sure, the food is very spicy in some regions, but in guidebooks, you can find a few Chinese words like "no spice," and besides, almost everyone has a phone with a translator. Sure, politeness is different from what we’re used to in France—you just have to remember that we’re on the other side of the world, and they don’t necessarily think the same way we do... More than once, I’ve had to ask for directions (I speak a little Chinese), and they bent over backwards to help us. More than once, we’ve been invited to have tea or even a meal in the countryside. Just to clarify, we travel as a couple. Admittedly, tourist spots are paid, but there are so many non-touristy yet far more authentic places to discover. Don’t stick to the cities—you’ll see the difference!

Totally agree

You forgot to mention the Chinese who try to scam you at every street corner. It’s not just because you’re foreigners—it’s simply the rule there. Scamming and swindling, a culture of money at any cost and without morals.

Between taxis with rigged meters, the tea house scam where you walk out with a bill for several hundred dollars for three cups of tea (and watch out if you refuse to pay), fake products sold as original brands, food scandals where they sell you plastic as real food, pickpocketing in public transport (one camera and one iPod gone), etc., etc...

I think they have the biggest range of scams in the world. Budding scammers could easily go to China for training...

I had the chance to spend a lot of time there for work, and I won’t be going back under any circumstances....

Hello, I just read your post about China. I couldn’t resist writing to you. We went solo four years ago for three weeks in Yunnan. Unfortunately, a health issue forced us to return after just 48 hours. But in those 48 hours, we managed to see everything you mentioned. 1. The food—wow. I’ve never seen people eat so messily. They throw all their trash on the ground. It’s unbelievable.

2. English? We’ve traveled solo all over the world and always managed with English (even in South America, we made ourselves understood). Forget about it in China—they don’t speak a word of English. If you want to take a taxi, brace yourself—none will stop because they’ve spotted you as a foreigner, and since they don’t speak English, they just keep driving. We met some Belgians who waited nearly two hours for a taxi. They finally got one with the help of other foreigners. We took a bus. The receptionist had written everything in Chinese for us to show the driver or someone on the bus. No one bothered to look at our paper, just turned away with their masks over their mouths.

3. They don’t know how to talk. It’s a competition to see who can speak the loudest. They yell nonstop. It’s exhausting. They’re disrespectful, always in a rush. Even during our layover in Frankfurt, we were stunned by the noise the Chinese travelers made. A young German woman warned us: *You haven’t seen or heard anything yet...*

4. It’s true—they cut in line constantly. It happened at the airport. And we could tell you so many more stories...

In short, after 48 hours, we formed the exact same opinion of the Chinese as you did. We had to cut our trip short, but we don’t regret it, and I’ll never go back to China.

Hello forum,

Did you, like us, experience the same things in China?

We spent a good twenty days there in August. I won’t be going back. Part of the trip was solo around Chengdu, then we joined a guided tour for 12 days (Beijing, Pingyao, Xi’an, Guilin, Xingping, Yangshuo, Shanghai, Wuzhen) and extended our stay by 4 extra days to visit Zhangjiajie.

The landscapes were stunning, and we have unforgettable memories... but we were really disappointed by the following:

- The food: way too spicy. No flavors, little taste. I’m speaking generally because we did try some good steamed dumplings, smoked pork, and dumplings... But overall, we were blown away by Thailand, Cambodia, and India—Chinese cuisine didn’t impress us at all.

- The behavior of the Chinese: disrespectful, rushed, aggressive. You have to fight constantly—we were pushed, crowded... At the entrance to the Terracotta Army (or other sites), it’s a human tidal wave... and I mean that literally. We were carried by the crowd without our feet touching the ground. It was like a situation where you have one bowl of rice and 20,000 starving people diving for it...

You’re at a ticket counter, and they cut in front of you. You’re in line for boarding, your suitcase ready to go on the conveyor belt, and someone shows up out of nowhere to put *their* suitcase down... even though they have a plane ticket with *their* seat number and won’t be leaving before you!!! You’re getting on the bus, and someone else shoves past you so they don’t end up behind you.

It’s like these people only think about themselves. I didn’t see a single one let someone else go first or even ask politely—as if manners and respect were completely foreign to them.

It’s honestly draining, exhausting...

- Communication: In every country we’ve visited, in Asia or Europe, we’ve always managed with English, a few words of Italian, French, or Spanish. In China, I’ll be blunt—if you don’t speak Chinese, you’re screwed. And yet, a pair of kids around ten or twelve years old asked us in English where we were from :)

- Understanding: Here’s the rule. Even if your interlocutor speaks a few words of English and says they understand you... make sure they *really* do, because 9 times out of 10, they don’t. Out of pride or cluelessness, they’ll give you a big smile and nod, but in reality, they didn’t understand a word of what you said.

Several times with our group, in the evening at a restaurant, if we hadn’t been helped by someone at another table who spoke a little English, we’d still be there. The classic example: the waiter brings one menu (for 10 people at the table), and we’re all trying to explain that we want 4 or more menus. Five minutes later, he’s still staring at us with that same blank smile...

In 3- or 4-star hotels, you go to them for a hot water or air conditioning issue. Three or four of them stand there beaming at you. You try to explain with photos or a translator, but in the end, you leave because your problem isn’t fixed.

They don’t know how to talk—they just yell... on the bus, at the hotel...

We were also surprised to find that self-service laundromats were almost nonexistent. We got scammed once at a hotel with an astronomical bill!

As for flights, we went with Air China and returned with Austrian Airlines—no comparison. No service and *inedible* food with Air China. With Austrian, multiple services, a decent meal, and smiling flight attendants.

I don’t know if you’ve had the same experience with this country, but I’m not at all eager to go back. Whereas if someone offered me India, Thailand, or Vietnam tomorrow, I’d go in a heartbeat!!!

That’s just my take for whoever’s interested. I’ve also traveled all over different regions of China. I don’t speak Chinese. Sometimes it’s tough to make myself understood, but never, ever have I felt scammed. It’s possible that taxis charge tourists a bit more. Maybe. But at least it’s done with kindness and a smile. Maybe because my hair’s turning gray.

Try to picture a Chinese traveler on their own crossing France—it might help you see things differently.

Don’t waste your time replying to people who’ve posted just ONE message on this site. That goes for the person you replied to as well as the next one (whose style and comments are *really* similar 😄😄).

Ah, okay, so the number of posts guarantees a user's credibility on a forum.

Wow...

Some users have dozens of contributions, and yet their posts are so shallow....

Instead of looking at my number of contributions, check my registration date on the forum. Who’s to say I didn’t decide to change my username or email address in the meantime for reasons that don’t concern you.

You’re pathetic and seem really frustrated....

My apologies, oh great forum master....

Oh okay, so the number of posts guarantees a user's credibility on a forum.

Wow...

Well, people who want to kill their dog accuse it of having rabies.

How dare you contradict someone who says Chinese people are dirty, that they spit, or that they shout? And that, regardless of their post count...

In 48 hours, you managed to learn everything about China and the Chinese!!! Well done, you're impressive. After 6 visits of 4 to 6 weeks each, I still haven’t discovered any of that. Guess I’ll have to go back...

Too bad—I loved China. The Chinese people, their hospitality, their cuisine, the landscapes, etc. Back from a month off the beaten path (Sept 2018). Met a max of 20 Europeans during that month. Thankfully! I was welcomed in China much better than in France! The charming hotels, 3-4 stars, were magnificent! Do you prefer Kerala? Are there still Hindus working in hotels there? And is Indian cuisine less spicy than Chinese? Weird! I never had any issues in China, but I did with Indian food! I’ve traveled to almost all Asian countries, always making sure to avoid tourists. And well, I’ve never been disappointed in any country. The only downside to China is the cost of travel if you don’t want to run into tourists. And a guide is essential—just like in Isère if you speak German. On the other hand, 50% of Chinese people speak or understand English!! I’ll definitely go back to China, probably to the North. And there you have it. You were probably just there at the wrong time in China!!

Good evening

Americans complaining that servers in France don’t speak English???????? Poor things!!

I work in transportation and I don’t consider myself their servant........ too many people forget they could say thanks to Rochambeau, Lafayette, or Admiral de Grasse (among others), otherwise their independence????????? In a few years, there will be 1 billion French speakers on Earth.

In the USA, English is being caught up by Spanish; I speak Spanish and many Americans understand it (at least a little).

To wrap up, a little respect means learning at least a few words of the local language... you don’t just show up in someone’s country like it’s conquered territory! I went to Vietnam and studied Vietnamese for two years out of respect for the people... I spoke Vietnamese and they answered me in... French...... respect doesn’t kill anyone!!!!!!

I needed to get that off my chest, but stop insisting that English is king!!!!!!!!!

GOODBYE

Of course, saying that English is king bothers me too. But it is—except, say, in Vietnam or with older people who spoke French with me. I visit an Asian country every two years. And I can’t learn Russian, Chinese, Uzbek, Kyrgyz, Persian, Mongolian, Kazakh, etc. But one advantage in all these countries is that university students speak or at least understand English. So for me, it’s the only way to communicate! Still, it’s an advantage!!

In 48 hours, you had time to learn everything about China and the Chinese!!! Wow, you guys are impressive.

😎😎😎

According to the International Organisation of La Francophonie, in 2014, French was the fifth most spoken language in the world with 274 million speakers, representing 4% of the global population (one in 26 people). Out of these, 212 million used it daily (+7% between 2010 and 2014), representing 3% of the world's population (one in 32 people). Estimated at 284 million in 2015, the number of French speakers is expected to reach nearly 700 million by 2050, or 8% of the global population (one in 12 people). Additionally, 85% of these French speakers will be in Africa due to demographic growth. !!!!!

Absolutely!!!!! You're right!! I can assure you it’s very much practiced again in Vietnam, Laos, and even in Russia, which I know well... I won’t even mention Lebanon......

In Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and other parts of Kazakhstan, Russian is common... (since I'm from the region, I know it well) I can assure you that learning a little Russian is within your reach—just a good basic foundation? (like "Russian right away," for example) without any advertising😉

Ni hao,

And yet!!!

I encountered all these situations during my dozens of trips to China. For the spice, after some hesitation, they’d ask, and you’d just remember the point of the question.

When it comes to queues, there are actually rugby matches—but they’re non-violent, just firm. You’ve got to stand your ground just as much as they do, and it goes smoothly. Some train stations even have perfectly orderly lines!!!

On the other hand, the police *do* know violence! One evening, returning from Tiananmen Square on the subway, two Chinese men were arguing. Normal, right? Except in Chinese, it must’ve been more serious. Their wives tried to calm them down, but no luck. At the next station, a police patrol (who must’ve already been off duty) got an order from their officer, and in 10 seconds, the two hotheads were THROWN onto the platform like a sack of dirty laundry. Their wives had no choice but to follow, despite their protests. Doors closed, subway left.

Encounters with kids: In a village where no white person had ever set foot, they’d come up to stroke my arm to feel the hair!

It’s not that I don’t want to go back—it’s the visa hassle that puts me off. Before, in Hong Kong, I’d hand my passport to the reception desk at 8 AM and by 2 PM, I’d have a 3- or 6-month visa for 80 yuan. Now, you’ve got to fill out six pages of forms and get a one-month visa for 100 € in two weeks. Last time I tried, I gave up because I wanted to enter on foot from Laos and didn’t have a flight ticket—neither inbound nor outbound.

With the rise in living standards, China doesn’t need foreign tourists anymore. They’ve got plenty of customers right there, which explains the scramble at the Terracotta Warriors in Xi’an!

on foot through Laos

As long as it’s not through China...

For those who didn’t get it, don’t worry—there’s nothing to get. (or almost nothing)

For those who don’t get it: there’s a shared border between Laos and China, but no continuous transport. So you arrive by shared taxi from one side, exit Laos, and hike up the hill on foot to reach the stunning Chinese border post, where you’re very kindly welcomed to go through the automated check. Once you’re out, you’ll find a bus to Mengla.

We actually visited China in May 2016. It was a small-group organized tour (there were just 3 of us). We had ideal travel conditions: guides who took great care of us, a travel partner who was of Chinese origin and spoke Mandarin, which allowed us to meet up with one of her Chinese friends in Shanghai. She showed us around the area, and we had long conversations with her...

So we loved it! I don’t remember struggling particularly in lines, whether at the Terracotta Army, taking the train, or domestic flights. At any rate, nothing worse than what you’d experience in Paris.

Of course, the Chinese have certain behaviors that might bother us (it’s China, not Europe), but they’re usually very kind to Westerners. I was definitely frustrated by not being able to communicate (beyond a few words of English) with people who stopped us on the street—you could tell they wanted to connect. We made do with exchanging photos and gestures.

It’s true that the authorities can be quite strict (hard for a French person to understand), and you notice it when walking around cities, but it probably explains why you feel completely safe there. Walking back to your hotel through Shanghai’s central train station and its surroundings at midnight is nothing like doing the same thing at Gare de Lyon in Paris...

To wrap up, we really enjoyed every restaurant we tried, and the dishes were rarely very spicy. For example, I remember that on our first night in Shanghai, we went out alone to a restaurant near our hotel and had no trouble choosing our dishes—we found them delicious. Still, we couldn’t help but eye a table of Chinese people enjoying what looked like huge crayfish. They noticed and offered us the same dish. It was really nice of them, especially since, as we suspected, it was amazing.

All this to say, we’d really love to go back to China, and we’re actually planning to do just that in 2019 with a trip to Yunnan.

After a month in Yunnan, the travel conditions were GREAT—exactly as described in your trip notes.

Well... 😮

For me, all your "negative" experiences (behavior, communication, understanding) are exactly why I L-O-V-E-D China and would happily go back!

I never felt oppressed or pushed around... I found the Chinese people ready to help, and I got a lot of help during some pretty stressful moments!!! Plus, they didn’t hesitate to share their food with me: on the train, in lines, etc.

Their curiosity and the way they openly stare made me smile! And I think they have a great sense of humor!

When it comes to communication and the difficulty of making yourself understood, I think that’s all part of the adventure! 😛

I traveled solo without a tour and I’d do it again, but next time more in the southwest of China to discover even more of the countless landscapes in this beautiful country!

🙂

Hello, For me, my experience was the same as yours. My husband and I went to China alone in September 2013. We visited 6 provinces, using domestic flights and then taxis once we were there. We’d heard so many bad things about China that we went with some apprehensions. But once we were there, all our worries disappeared. We found the cities less noisy than in Vietnam, where we’d stayed for 2 months in 2009. In China, the many motorbikes are electric and glide silently. The people are calmer. They gather in squares to dance, make music, and sing. We found that charming. In Vietnam, life is perpetually noisy—it starts at 7 in the morning with loudspeakers blaring long speeches, and if they’re near your hotel, good luck waking up gently. Then there are the horns, trumpets, and countless motorbikes... As for the people, it’s all about commerce, commerce, commerce. When you walk into a shop, the salesperson follows you with a commercial smile, and if you leave without buying anything, they give you "the look." In China, we found them much cooler. It’s true that when they see foreigners (especially blond ones), they stare intensely, kids want to touch you, and some people even wanted to take photos with us. It didn’t bother us—in fact, we liked it. They try to help you on the street when they see you looking at a map. Sure, their English isn’t great, but as I always say: we speak "Marseille English," and they speak "Chinese English," and we managed just fine!!!!!!! For meals, I don’t remember having anything horrible. On the contrary, in Kunming, we found a "luxury" hotel (at an interesting price), and the breakfast was amazing—a buffet that went all around the restaurant, with absolutely everything, and it was all excellent. We’re planning to go back to visit other provinces because it was such a wonderful trip. On the other hand, 2 months in Vietnam is too much—by the end, we couldn’t stand being there anymore. Just to be clear, this is our personal experience, the same as yours, and I’m not trying to convince anyone or start a debate. Best regards, Anapo

Just to be clear, this is our personal feeling, the same as yours, and I don’t want to convince anyone or start a debate. Best regards, Anapo

That’s exactly how I feel about China too. No debate here either.

But going back after what we experienced—even trying a different region or time of year—just isn’t something we want to do, or feel ready for.

Ni hao,

Yay, long live China! 😛

But I’ll add that yes, it’s true they sometimes cut in line, but mindsets are changing, and the younger generation is increasingly adopting behaviors we see in the West.

For example: when I was at Hongqiao Airport, an elderly woman cut in front of me in line, and she was with a young man (her grandson???). I made a sound with my mouth to show my annoyance and get their attention. The grandson noticed, pulled his grandmother back behind me, and apologized. At first, the elderly woman didn’t understand the young man’s gesture. He said something to her, and she apologized with gestures and smiles... I really saw the clash of behaviors!

So, as others have said in this discussion, don’t hesitate to let them know you’re upset if someone cuts in line...

It’s also a cultural thing. For some, it’s just normal to, say, push past everyone to get on the bus.... My mom came from Poland to Canada in the '80s, and she told me that no one lined up to board a bus: a bus would arrive, and you just wanted to get on as fast as possible (especially in winter), no matter if it was through the front or back door—you just had to get on, period. When she arrived in Canada, she was surprised to see people lining up nicely and boarding through the correct door (in Montreal, you board at the front). So you have to adapt to where you are. When I was in China and saw people rushing toward the subway doors, honestly, I didn’t hesitate to push a little too to get on.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do! 😉😛

Ni hao,

Yay, long live China! 😛

But I’ll add that yes, it’s true they sometimes cut in line, but mindsets are changing, and the younger generation is increasingly adopting behaviors we see in the West.

For example: when I was at Hongqiao Airport, an elderly woman cut in front of me, and she was with a young man (her grandson???). I made a sound with my mouth to show my displeasure and get their attention. The grandson noticed, pulled his grandmother back behind me, and apologized. At first, the elderly woman didn’t understand the young man’s gesture. He said something to her, and she apologized with gestures and smiles... I really saw the clash of behaviors!

So, as others have said in this discussion, don’t hesitate to let them know you’re upset if someone cuts in front of you...

And it’s a cultural thing. For some, it’s just normal to, for example, push past everyone to get on the bus.... My mom came from Poland to Canada in the 80s, and she told me that no one lined up to get on a bus: a bus would arrive, and you just wanted to get on as fast as possible (especially in winter), no matter if it was through the front or back door—you just had to get on, period. When she arrived in Canada, she was surprised to see people lining up nicely and boarding through the right door (in Montreal, you board through the front door). So you have to adapt to where you are. When I was in China and saw people rushing toward the subway doors, honestly, I didn’t hesitate to push a little too to get on.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do! 😉😛

Hello,

You’re much younger than I am, and your comment is very accurate. For my part, at my age, I ask myself: can we really call people rude in other countries when we see the lack of manners that’s become widespread here over the last three decades? It seems like it affects a lot of people because, in reality, that’s just how life is now. Of course, if you have good manners yourself, you shouldn’t let others walk all over you, and (as you say) you should gently put people in their place. Best regards,

Example: When I was at Hongqiao Airport, an elderly woman cut in front of me in line with a young man (her grandson???). I made a sound with my mouth to show my displeasure and get their attention. The grandson noticed and pulled his grandmother back behind me, then apologized. At first, the elderly woman didn’t understand the young man’s gesture. He said something to her, and she apologized with gestures and smiles...

Same scene at Chengdu Airport. I was quietly waiting my turn behind the yellow line when a woman ducked under the elastic barrier to step up to the counter (where someone was already being served 😎). I turned and started to call her out, but her son (?), looking really embarrassed, immediately pulled her back into line. A pretty classic case of reverse generational transmission!

It’s better to react in the moment than to just stand there like a fool in line and wait until you’re back home to vent your frustration online. 🙂

Scary! I’ve been living in Shanghai for 6 months now and plan to stay. I’ve never experienced the situations you’re talking about, but I often overhear French tourists saying things like Chinese people spit on the ground, are hypocritical, etc. I went to university in Strasbourg and then Paris, and I saw way more spitting on the sidewalks there than here. The vast majority of Chinese people I know are extremely courteous, and you can build really strong friendships with them. But first, you have to stay humble, listen, and learn. I totally get why a horde of loud, never-satisfied French tourists would get what they deserve. Plus, it sounds like you took a "budget" trip—otherwise, why would you need to do your laundry at a laundromat? The cost of dry cleaning in hotels here is absolutely negligible compared to France, even in high-end hotels!

As for your opinion on the food, complain to your travel agency, but don’t insult the Chinese. And don’t be surprised if you got jostled in the most tourist-packed places. You won’t be going back to China? Well, I hope you’re right...

Terrifying! I’ve been living in Shanghai for 6 months now and I fully intend to stay. I’ve never experienced the situations you mentioned, but I often overhear French tourists talking: the Chinese spit on the ground, they’re hypocritical, etc. I went to university in Strasbourg and then Paris, and I saw way more spit on the sidewalks there than here. The vast majority of Chinese people I know are extremely courteous, and you can build very strong friendships with them. But first, you have to stay humble, listen, and learn. I completely understand why a horde of loud, never-satisfied French tourists would get what they deserve. Plus, it seems like you took a "budget" trip since you had to wash your clothes in a laundromat. The price of dry cleaning in hotels is absolutely negligible compared to France, even in high-end hotels! As for your opinion on the food, complain to your travel agency, but don’t insult the Chinese. Finally, don’t be surprised if you got jostled in the most tourist-infested places. You won’t be going back to China? I hope you’re right...

Good evening, Well said, I completely agree with your analysis. Indeed, we traveled alone in China (just like in every other country in the world) and were pleasantly surprised compared to everything we’d heard or read. I noticed that the Chinese only stand out for their rudeness when they travel in "large" groups—they want to see everything, take photos of everything, get the best spots in front of monuments, etc. Exactly like all tourists worldwide who travel in groups and have to rush because their time is limited!!!!!!! See you around, Best regards

Exactly, "may God hear you." Since 2000, I’ve been visiting Asia every two years. I avoid tourists (especially the French)! Because they’re rarely happy with their lot—always complaining about flight delays, the food, the prices, etc., etc... I also spend two weeks a year in France. For the same quality as in China, I have to pay double, and French courtesy isn’t always up to par!

This past month in China (September 2018), I had deep and friendly connections. My laundry at the hotel was always done for free! I stayed in "truly charming" hotels where I was ALWAYS warmly welcomed! Clean rooms of at least 30 m² for around 50 €. So, back to northern China in 2020. And I’m leaving this discussion because, for me,

YES, I WILL RETURN TO CHINA!

I love this thread. We're told that the younger generation is correcting their elders' tendency to cut in line, but we're also told that the Chinese are courteous and respectful. Go figure... So what exactly are the young people correcting, then? 😇

It's obvious that the Chinese don't have the same upbringing as Western countries (I wouldn't even dare compare to Scandinavian countries), and naturally, some of their behaviors can seem shocking (the opposite is probably true too). We can understand these differences, but that doesn't mean we should deny them...

Terrifying! I’ve been living in Shanghai for six months now and plan to stay. I’ve never experienced the situations you’re talking about, but I often overhear French tourists saying things like Chinese people spit on the ground, are hypocritical, etc. I went to university in Strasbourg and then Paris, and I saw way more spit on the sidewalks there than here. The vast majority of Chinese people I know are extremely courteous, and you can build really strong friendships with them. But first, you have to stay humble, listen, and learn. I totally get why a horde of loud, never-satisfied French tourists would get what they deserve. Plus, it sounds like you took a "budget" trip since you had to do your laundry at a laundromat. The cost of dry cleaning in hotels here is absolutely negligible compared to France, even in high-end hotels! As for your opinion on the food, complain to your travel agent, but don’t insult the Chinese. And don’t be surprised if you got jostled in the most tourist-infested places. You won’t be going back to China? God willing...

Who said anything about a budget trip? Did I insult anyone?

God heard me—next year, it’ll be somewhere else 😄

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one with positive feelings about China and the Chinese. Personally, I feel very much at ease there, having no issues with relationships even though I don’t speak Chinese yet. Just learning to say hello, thank you, and goodbye is enough to trigger friendly smiles.

But I wanted to correct you on the idea that China was never colonized by Europeans. Whoa! You should urgently read Alain Peyrefitte’s excellent book *The Immobile Empire*. Not only did we colonize it, but alongside our British friends, we killed, looted, raped, and burned everything that didn’t even resist us. Below, I’ve included a link to Victor Hugo’s letter of outrage on the subject. We introduced opium to better enslave them. Yet the Chinese don’t hold it against us—probably because they read Victor Hugo’s letter in school and are also taught that the France of Human Rights and General de Gaulle was the first to recognize the existence of Communist China, liberated from the yoke of the West.

I invite Ericdu38 to come to Shanghai alone with his family and stroll around the streets near the Bund. He won’t see people in a hurry but busy, won’t be jostled or stared at like an alien. He can have his laundry washed and ironed for just a few euros. With the *Routard* guide, he’ll discover the city’s many parks where people sing, dance, or practice Tai Chi in a calm that doesn’t exist in Paris. He can obviously explore the countless restaurants serving dishes from all over China and even find excellent fries and remarkable Burgundy snails.

Here’s a summary of Alain Peyrefitte’s book: The Immobile Empire or The Clash of Worlds Did you know that during the French Revolution, the British sent an expedition of five ships and seven hundred men to the Chinese Empire to "open it up" to them? That they, though only eight million strong, intended to negotiate proudly as equals with a country of three hundred thirty million—the third of humanity? That China, considering itself "the only civilization under Heaven," brutally rejected all their demands? That it treated their envoys like high-ranking prisoners? That they were subjected—from Macao to Tartary, through the rituals of the Court and the surprises of the City, among celestial bureaucrats and missionary-hostages—to a true initiatory journey? That this historic opportunity was a missed encounter?

The reader will embark on a double initiatory journey with them: into the depths of the Middle Empire, enclosed in a frozen perfection, but also into the British Empire, driven by its rise; toward the identity of the Far East, as well as that of the Far West; toward the essence of dirigisme and that of liberalism.

Lord Macartney’s mission in a China at its peak highlights the clash of two cultures: the brilliant Chinese civilization, over forty centuries old, and the young Western civilization, propelled by the combined effects of intellectual, scientific, technological, commercial, maritime, agronomic, industrial, and financial revolutions. A second mission, in 1816, led by Lord Amherst, received an even more humiliating welcome. To access China, the British decided to use force: this was the dishonorable Opium War. A refined society collapsed under the weight of its isolation and immobility. This dramatic sequence sheds new light on the dual enigma of "development" and "underdevelopment."

Victor Hugo’s letter to Captain Butler, 1860: https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2004/10/HUGO/11563

Let’s set the record straight.

We’re told that the younger generation is correcting their elders’ tendency to cut in line, but we’re also told that the Chinese are courteous and respectful. Go figure...

Congrats, you’ve just discovered the principle of a forum, where different people can have different experiences and feelings 👏😄. So they exchange, compare their opinions. It’s a bit shocking at first, but you get used to it.

Yeah, the whole point of a forum is that you can read all sorts of opinions—even completely opposite ones. You just have to know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

But when it comes to an objective fact, it’s more unsettling. Do Chinese people really tend to scam, as you’ve described, or are they polite and courteous, as others claim?

ONE story (or two, three, or ten) turns into "Chinese" with a tendency to scam. Honestly, this thread is pure gold! 😄

Well, everyone’s got a story about some Chinese person spitting, scamming, or yelling, and I’ve got to say I’ll never believe anyone who claims they’ve never seen it. That said, the question remains: can we generally think of this as a trend, or is it actually really rare behavior that the rest of the population condemns?

I’ve only been to China four times, and for me, the reality falls somewhere in between—but more toward one side than the other. Still, I’d happily go back, especially since, as Xagga pointed out, it’s a cheap destination. Even if I do prefer Japan, where the question above doesn’t even come up.

Sorry, but living in Shanghai for 6 months doesn’t mean you know China. It’s like living in NYC for 6 months and claiming you know the US, or spending a little time in Paris and boasting that you know Europe (which, by the way, many Chinese people actually do...).

We’ll see what you say in 6 years. I spent 3 years in Shanghai and have been in Shenzhen for 2 years now. Shanghai isn’t China. The people there are much more refined, international, open-minded, and educated. Shanghai has its own history and culture, shaped by outside influences and a certain art of living. Other Chinese people are almost ashamed of it, while Shanghai locals are proud of it. You’ll see—once you leave Shanghai and speak Chinese with the general population, you’ll find that most Chinese people *hate* Shanghai locals because they’re different, and it touches a nerve... They’ll call them arrogant, pretentious, effeminate... when really, they’re just cleaner, more open-minded, and better educated.

I can tell you that outside Shanghai, you’re dealing with proud rustics who spit everywhere, aren’t always honest, and are very nationalistic. And let’s not even talk about the mediocre service, which reflects the lack of respect given to anyone outside their inner circle.

Just last Friday, I was at the counter topping up my metro pass. I’d barely handed my card to the clerk when a woman—who couldn’t have been 40—suddenly appeared out of nowhere, shoved me aside without a second thought, and slapped her card down, telling the employee, "Add 50." And there wasn’t even a line—just her and me. This is typical, everyday behavior: rude, pushy, *I’m paying so I get priority*. Yeah, well, I’m paying too, and the clerk had already started helping me, so I think you can wait 40 seconds.

I see a lot of well-meaning folks painting a picture of younger generations calling out their elders for bad manners. Open your eyes—it’s nonsense. This only happens because you’re a foreigner and it’s obvious you don’t live here. 90% of the time, people will walk all over you without hesitation, no matter their age, especially if they think they’re richer than you (a pretty relative criterion, but hey, it makes them feel good, so let’s not bruise their new-money pride).

Anyway, I’m pretty amused reading all these comments from people who’ve only seen China through a tourist’s eyes, yet feel qualified to defend the country wholeheartedly when they barely know it... and who don’t seem any more legitimate than the person who started this thread to judge the country, despite what they might think. Why start off so aggressively when your experience is just as relative as theirs?

Believe me, no Chinese person would bother defending your country the way you’re defending theirs. And when you’re treated well as a tourist, just remember—it’s all a commercial facade, a community reflex drilled into them by local propaganda. They’re constantly fed the idea that they must show foreigners their best face because the authorities know you don’t catch flies with vinegar, and you don’t spit on a smiling face—even if everything they do is designed to swindle you and subtly assert dominance over anything that moves.

So I’ll say it again: I agree with the person who opened this topic. While Chinese people can be endearing and friendly, it’s undeniable that they’re also disrespectful, rude, and selfish—borderline egotistical. Not to mention their questionable hygiene standards.

As for the argument that "China is so far away, so it’s different"—sorry, but NO. Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and Australia are also far away, and yet they manage to be polite and respectful. The current behavior of Chinese people isn’t the result of some cultural difference—it’s the legacy of communism, which wiped out culture, and the worship of money, which erases respect for others. And let’s be honest: if they wanted to change, they could, but they seem pretty happy with themselves, so don’t hold your breath.

We introduced opium there to better enslave them. But the Chinese don’t hold it against us.

Two sentences, two mistakes and oversimplifications. It wasn’t to enslave China that the British forcibly introduced opium—produced in their Indian colony—into China, but to restore a trade balance that had become catastrophically lopsided. China was exporting a lot of goods (especially porcelain, silk, and tea) and importing almost nothing, accumulating an ever-growing share of Europe’s silver reserves as the silver mines in Mexico and Peru were running dry.

Chinese government propaganda never misses a chance to harp on the humiliations suffered in the 19th century. Western visitors usually don’t notice, since this internal propaganda is never translated. Besides, it doesn’t seem to resonate with the Chinese either—across all social classes, they have an idealized vision of France, full of romance and luxury (how many times have I heard the cliché 法国人很浪漫 = the French are so romantic!).

On another note, the summary of Alain Peyrefitte’s excellent book is strangely off-base compared to the actual text. While this encounter was indeed a missed opportunity (the word the author uses), it was because the British sought purely commercial relations, whereas the Chinese saw the mission as recognition of the vassalage of those distant foreigners. The Macartney mission was doomed to fail due to this mutual misunderstanding.

Sorry, but living in Shanghai for six months doesn’t mean you know China. It’s like living in NYC for six months and claiming you know the US, or spending a little time in Paris and boasting that you know Europe (which, by the way, many Chinese people actually do...).

We’ll see what you say in six years. I spent three years in Shanghai and have been in Shenzhen for two. Shanghai isn’t China. The people there are much more refined, international, open-minded, and educated. Shanghai has its own history and culture, shaped by outside influences and a certain way of life. Other Chinese people are almost ashamed of it, while Shanghai locals are proud. You’ll see—once you leave Shanghai and speak Chinese to the general population, most Chinese people *hate* Shanghai locals because they’re different. It brings out a certain complex in them... They’ll call them arrogant, pretentious, effeminate... when really, they’re just cleaner, more open, and better educated.

I can tell you that outside Shanghai, you’re dealing with proud, rough people who *want* to be that way. They spit everywhere, aren’t always honest, and are very nationalistic. And don’t even get me started on the mediocre service—it’s a reflection of the lack of respect given to anyone outside their inner circle.

Just last Friday, I was at the counter topping up my metro pass. I’d barely handed my card to the clerk when a woman—maybe not even 40—shoved me aside without a second thought and slapped her card down, telling the employee, "Add 50." And there wasn’t even a line—just her and me. That’s typical daily behavior here: rude, pushy, *I’m paying so I’m right.* Yeah, well, so am I, and the employee had already started helping me, so maybe you could wait 40 seconds.

I see all these well-meaning people painting a picture of a new generation calling out the older one for bad manners. Open your eyes—it’s nonsense. This only happens because you’re a foreigner and it’s obvious you don’t live here. 90% of the time, people will walk all over you without a second thought, no matter their age, and *especially* if they think they’re richer than you (a pretty relative criterion, but hey, it makes them feel good, so let’s not bruise their new-money pride).

Anyway, I’m kind of amused reading all these comments from people who’ve only seen China through a tourist’s eyes, defending the country wholeheartedly when they barely know it... and who don’t seem any more qualified than the person who started this thread to judge the place, despite what they might think. Why start off so harshly when your experience is often just as relative as theirs?

Believe me, no Chinese person would bother defending your country the way you’re defending theirs. And when you’re treated well as a tourist, just remember—it’s all a commercial facade, a community reflex drilled into them by local propaganda. They’re constantly fed the idea that they *have* to show foreigners their best side because it serves the authorities’ strategy. You don’t catch flies with vinegar, and you don’t spit on a smiling face—even if everything they do is designed to swindle you and subtly assert dominance over anything that moves.

So I’ll say it again: I agree with the person who opened this topic. While Chinese people can be endearing and friendly, it’s undeniable that they’re also disrespectful, rude, and selfish—borderline egotistical. Not to mention their questionable hygiene standards.

As for the argument that "China’s on the other side of the world, so it’s different"—sorry, but no. Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico, and Australia are also far away, and that doesn’t stop them from being polite and respectful. The current behavior of Chinese people isn’t the result of some cultural difference—it’s communism, which wiped out culture, and a worship of money, which strips away respect for others. And let’s be real: if they wanted to change, they could. But they seem pretty happy with themselves, so don’t hold your breath.

Good evening,

I read your account, and since you live there, of course your experience is different from ours—we only spent a month as tourists, visiting six provinces. It’s true that we loved China. It was a beautiful trip with so many incredible things to see. We didn’t see Chinese people the way they’re often described. We loved how they danced, sang, did group exercises, and played music in all the parks we visited—there are so many! To us, it seemed peaceful, and it looked like people were happy doing things together. But I’m not disputing your experience—after all, you deal with them all year round.

That said, we’ve also been to the countries you mentioned (except Japan), staying two months in each. I don’t share your opinion. In Vietnam and Thailand, everyone’s a "salesperson"—they grab you constantly to sell you something, won’t let go, and if you look at a shirt, they’ll force you to check out pants or something else. At restaurants, the second you sit down, they shove the menu at you and expect you to order immediately, without giving you time to figure it out. Like I said in an earlier post, in those two countries, we didn’t even get a hint of passing friendship. They smile and quote you prices four times higher, but the second you walk away without buying, their faces change—like emojis: smile, no smile. We were even told that French people are cheap because we wouldn’t buy everything they offered at whatever price!!! Mexico, which we loved (we have a soft spot for South American countries), is very dirty. Dead animals and trash line the roads. It’s noisy day and night—you can’t sleep without earplugs—but the people are cheerful and charming.

As for Australia, a very expensive country, I can’t really speak to the people in small or big cities—they’re indifferent, like you don’t even exist. But we loved driving thousands of kilometers through the empty bush and seeing kangaroos and wallabies.

So in conclusion, every country—and everyone—has its flaws. Nothing’s perfect.

Just one small question out of curiosity: Why do you keep living in a country that clashes so much with our French values and upbringing?

Best regards.

Thanks for all these details—it’s really useful to be reminded of them sometimes. I’ll be going back to China! 再见

Well, to each their own... We spent as much time as you did in the countries you mentioned, except for Vietnam where we only stayed for 2 weeks, and we had a completely different experience! In every country, we didn’t encounter any harassment or forced sales—almost always great interactions. And aside from certain areas of Mexico City, Mexico left a much stronger impression on us with its beauty and diversity than with its dirt.

To be honest, we weren’t expecting to love Vietnam much because we’d heard mixed reviews back in France. But all my foreign colleagues based in Shenzhen, like me, came back raving about it, especially about the "warm and human" contact with people, which is a nice change from the latent aggression we deal with daily here. And we totally agreed with that!

As for why we live in China, it’s purely professional reasons. But the current stint is almost over—YES!! And this experience in Guangdong will at least have the merit of showing us just how deep the gap is between Shanghai and the rest of the country. For us, it’s clear: in the future, we won’t accept a job in China unless it’s in Shanghai. Because while all the little quirks I described in my previous post were kind of amusing when we were based in Shanghai and just visiting other regions for a week or two, it’s a lot less fun when they become your daily reality.

It’s a shame to leave a country like China feeling that—for now (and likely for a long time to come)—only a bubble of 20 million people meets the standard, but that’s our experience, and unfortunately, we don’t see much changing that impression.

To each their own, I guess! We’ve spent as much time as you in the countries you mentioned—except Vietnam, where we only stayed for two weeks—and our experience was completely different. In every country, we didn’t face any harassment or aggressive sales, and we almost always had great interactions. Aside from certain areas of Mexico City, Mexico left a much stronger impression on us for its beauty and diversity than for its dirtiness.

Honestly, we weren’t expecting to love Vietnam much since we’d heard mixed reviews back in France. But all my foreign colleagues based in Shenzhen like me came back raving about it, especially about the "warm and human" connections with people, which is a nice change from the everyday latent aggression here. And we totally agreed with that!

As for why we live in China, it’s purely for work. But our current stint is almost over—YES!! At least this experience in Guangdong has shown us just how deep the gap is between Shanghai and the rest of the country. For us, it’s clear: in the future, we won’t accept a job in China unless it’s in Shanghai. Because while all the little quirks I described in my previous post were kind of amusing when we were based in Shanghai and visiting other regions for a week or two, they’re a lot less fun when they become your daily reality.

It’s too bad to leave a country like China feeling that—for now, and likely for a long time—only a 20-million-person bubble is up to par. But that’s our experience, and unfortunately, we don’t see much changing that.

Hello,

Thanks for answering my somewhat nosy question—actually, I should’ve guessed it was work keeping you there. But I’m going to push my luck and ask if there are any beautiful places to visit in the province where you live, whether monuments or nature? We’ve visited the following places and their surroundings, seeing everything there was to see: Beijing, Xi’an, Chengdu, Kunming, Lijiang, Shanghai. We were amazed by: Beijing and its grand historical monuments, the Great Wall, the giant Buddha of Leshan, the Stone Forest (so impressive!), a day on the Li River, Dragon Mountain up to 5,000 m, the Terracotta Army, etc... Could you tell me, if it’s not too much trouble, which other provinces still have really beautiful sites? Thanks in advance. Best regards,

No problem! You seem to have already covered the main classics, but here are some suggestions:

If you haven’t already explored around Beijing, Pingyao and Chengde should appeal to you, as well as the Yungang Caves, not far from Datong.

On the coast, facing Taiwan, Fujian with its Hakka country (visit the tulou) and landscapes between sea and mountains.

Further inland, the Zhangjiajie site, which inspired the landscapes of *Avatar*. They built a glass pedestrian bridge spanning a gorge. It’s impressive but always packed. And honestly, the crowd’s behavior really ruins the visit.

Around Chengdu, have you seen the pandas and Jiuzhaigou National Park? The latter offers beautiful landscapes, but you’ll need to plan your visit carefully due to the park’s national status and its constraints.

Further north, you could visit Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang, which feels much more like Central Asia than China (for the latter, be aware that the region isn’t always open to foreigners—it’s a bit of a gamble).

Finally, around Shanghai, if you haven’t already: Hangzhou and especially part of Anhui (Tunxi, sunrise in the Huang Shan mountains, and old water towns like Hongcun and Xidi). They’re packed too, but it doesn’t necessarily ruin the visit—especially if you go on a weekday, outside of Chinese holidays.

Of course, there’s also Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. I haven’t been to Taiwan, but I’ve only heard good things: friendly and welcoming people happy to see tourists, a unique culture and vibe, a mix of old Chinese culture and Japanese respect. And Tibet if you have the means—though it’s not always open to foreigners, and you’ll need a mandatory (and expensive) guide/spy from an agency, all at your own expense.

No problem! Indeed, you seem to have done the main classics. But here are some suggestions:

If you haven't already done so around Beijing, Pingyao and Chengde should appeal to you, as well as the Yungang Caves, not far from Datong.

On the coast, facing Taiwan, Fujian with its Hakka country (visit the tulou) and landscapes between sea and mountains.

Further inland, the Zhangjiajie site, which inspired the landscapes of Avatar. They built a glass pedestrian bridge that crosses a gorge. Impressive but always packed. And honestly, the crowd's behavior really ruins the visit there too.

Around Chengdu, have you seen the pandas and Jiuzhaigou National Park? The latter offers beautiful landscapes, but you need to plan your visit carefully due to quite a few constraints related to its national park status.

Further north, you could visit Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang, which feels much more like Central Asia than China (for the latter, be aware that the region isn't always open to foreigners—it's hit or miss).

Finally, great spots around Shanghai if you haven't already done them: Hangzhou and especially part of Anhui (Tunxi, sunrise in the Huang Shan mountains, and old water towns like Hongcun and Xidi. Also packed, but it doesn’t necessarily ruin the visit this time, especially if you go on a weekday outside Chinese holidays).

Of course, there’s also Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. I haven’t been to Taiwan, but I’ve only heard good things: open and welcoming people who are happy to see tourists, a unique culture and atmosphere, a mix of old Chinese culture and Japanese influence. And Tibet if you can afford it, though it’s not always open to foreigners, and you’re required to have a guide/spy and an agency—all at your own expense.

Thank you so much for your quick response. This is really helpful (we’ve already been to Hong Kong and Macau), as we’re considering going back to China, and your insights will help me plan an itinerary and refine it with travel guides and websites. But nothing beats firsthand experience from someone who lives there. See you later, Best regards

Nimen hao

A little anecdote on a bus: now that smoking is banned in public places, I don’t think tobacco consumption has really decreased. So, on the bus I boarded in a small town deep in Yunnan, all the men were smoking. My Chinese is way too weak to give a speech, but silent gestures can be surprisingly powerful. So when I walked past the smokers, I simply pointed to the shiny new no-smoking sticker above their heads. They either put out their cigarettes or tossed them out the window if they were by it. And lots of little smiles bloomed on the faces of the other passengers who hadn’t dared to say anything.

That’s why I’ll return to China.

In which other provinces can you still find very beautiful sites?

Hi Anna,

For my very first trip to China, I explored the Chinese part of the Silk Road in September 2018, including the provinces of Xinjiang (officially an autonomous region), Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia, and Shaanxi.

My top cultural sites: - The Mogao Caves in Dunhuang (northern Gansu). - Majishan, south of Tianshui (Gansu). - Qutan Si Monastery (southeast of Xining, Qinghai). - The Binglingsi Caves (southern Gansu). - The Gansu Provincial Museum in Lanzhou (Gansu). - Ta'er Si Monastery (near Xining, Qinghai), despite heavy Han crowds. - The Qing village of Dangjiacun. - The Confucian Temple in Hancheng.

My top natural sites: - The Karakoram Highway, between Tashkorgan and Kashgar, - The Danxia landforms northwest of Zhangye, packed with people but well-organized. - The natural setting of Binglingsi (Gansu), with its cliffs along the Huang He (Yellow River). - Mount Huashan, - The Tianshan Canyon, north of Kuqa (Xinjiang).

Fabrice