Turkish Airlines flight delay and refusal to compensate
FR

Translated into English.

KA Kate Globetrotter ·
Kate didn’t tell us when her flight was canceled. (I think)

My flight scheduled for January 7, 2025, was canceled on August 19.

At first, they messed up by offering us the next Toulouse/Frankfurt flight, which arrived after the Frankfurt/Chennai departure!



AT Attila Globetrotter ·
So you're not within the timeframe that entitles you to anything.

Miles at best if you have the card. But since loyalty programs are getting more and more restrictive, it won’t be much help. 🤪

Air France once offered me a completely absurd rerouting with a second flight leaving before the first one. 😠

Their computer programming must need some work!
AT Attila Globetrotter ·
I no longer take those really early flights since KLM stood me up in Lyon.

Anyway, since I have to book a hotel night, I’ll just stay at the airport for the second flight.
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
Unless I'm mistaken, if the passenger is notified that their flight is canceled more than 14 days before departure, they're not entitled to anything.

Hello,

Let’s go over the texts (mainly Regulation 261/2004 of the European Parliament and Council) in detail.

Article 5

1. In the event of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned: a) shall be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; b) shall be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and (2), as well as, in the case of re-routing when the reasonably expected departure time of the new flight is at least the day after the planned departure of the canceled flight, the assistance provided for in Article 9(1)(b) and (c); and c) shall be entitled to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless they are informed of the cancellation of the flight: i) at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or ii) between two weeks and seven days before the scheduled time of departure if they are offered re-routing allowing them to depart no more than two hours before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than four hours after the scheduled time of arrival; or iii) less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure if they are offered re-routing allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival.

It’s important to note that the rights under a) and b) are NOT SUBJECT TO ANY CONDITIONS, unlike the right to compensation defined in c). Therefore, if notified more than 14 days in advance, there’s no right to compensation under c), but the rights under a) and b) still apply. So Articles 8 and 9 apply even if the passenger is informed more than 14 days in advance.

Article 8:

Assistance: right to reimbursement or re-routing 1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between: a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan, together with, when relevant, - a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity; b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience, subject to availability of seats. [...] Article 9:

Right to care 1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered free of charge: a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time; b) hotel accommodation in cases where: - a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or - an additional stay to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary; c) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other). [...]

They can accept re-routing (if the airline offers it) or request a refund for their ticket.

The phrase "if the airline offers it" leads me to these comments:

Under Article 8, the passenger has the choice between three options. The "Commission Communication" No. 2016/C 214/04, published in the Official Journal of the European Union on 15/06/2016, further clarifies in Article 4.2:

"Re-routing must be offered without additional cost to the passenger, even when passengers are re-routed by another air carrier or by a different mode of transport, or in a higher class, or at a higher fare than that paid for the initial service[...]", which is merely the application of Article 8 of the regulation.

And:

"The air carrier must offer simultaneously the choice between reimbursement or re-routing."

Furthermore,

"Re-routing must be offered without additional cost to the passenger, even when passengers are re-routed by another air carrier or by a different mode of transport, or in a higher class, or at a higher fare than that paid for the initial service[...]", which is again merely the application of Article 8 of the regulation.

And: "The air carrier must offer simultaneously the choice between reimbursement or re-routing."

Moreover, the judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union of 11 June 2020, Case C-74/19, states:

"Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004, read in the light of recital 14 thereof, must be interpreted as meaning that the fact that an air carrier re-routes a passenger, on the ground that the aircraft carrying that passenger was affected by an extraordinary circumstance, by means of a flight operated by itself and resulting in that passenger arriving on the day after that initially scheduled does not constitute a ‘reasonable measure’ releasing that carrier from its obligation to pay compensation under Article 5(1)(c) and Article 7(1) of that regulation, unless there was no other possibility of direct or indirect re-routing by a flight operated by itself or any other air carrier arriving at a less delayed time than the next flight of the air carrier concerned" [...]

All of the above implies that if the airline fails to meet its obligations, the passenger can formally request that the airline comply. If the airline does not act (no re-routing offered, or re-routing not meeting the "earliest opportunity" requirement), the passenger may purchase another ticket that meets the "earliest opportunity" re-routing requirement, even from another airline, and then claim reimbursement, if necessary, by taking legal action. The sine qua non condition is to cite the CJEU judgment in question to the judge, who will have no choice but to order the airline to reimburse.

Important: The choice between the three options offered by the airline is irreversible. So, if the passenger chooses a refund for their canceled ticket, they lose all right to re-routing and, consequently, any right to reimbursement for a new ticket.

For these reasons, the first thing to do when an airline informs you of a cancellation IS NOT to rush to call the airline. See here: https://retardimportantavion.wordpress.com/2023/09/29/indemnisation-meme-si-circonstance-extraordinaire-droit-reacheminement-dans-les-meilleurs-delais/

If the re-routing causes them to lose or gain days or incur additional costs, that’s on them.

Regarding lost salary days, for legal proceedings in France (unlike other EU Member States), you’re correct. Lost vacation days: you’re also correct. However, under Article 9, expenses incurred while waiting for the re-routing flight, including additional layovers, must be reimbursed upon presentation of receipts, especially since they should have been directly covered by the airline—unless, of course, this wait occurs at home.

Legal proceedings: Contrary to a common misconception, justice in France is free, except, of course, if you hire a lawyer. But when it comes to air passenger rights, there’s no need for a lawyer. You just need to know how to copy and paste from my website.

If you can also use the "European Small Claims Procedure" https://retardimportantavion.wordpress.com/2021/03/02/procedure-europeenne-de-reglement-des-petits-litiges/ (if your opponent’s headquarters are in an EU Member State different from your country of residence), you should know that it’s a super simplified procedure done by mail. The same text can be used for both the registered letter and the document to be sent to the court. You’ll just need to modify the beginning and the end and fill out Form A.

The only "difficulties" are patience and discipline (not deviating from the templates).

Best regards
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
Hello,

In your case, in addition to a refund, you’re entitled to compensation of 250 € per paying passenger, unless the airline PROVES (simply claiming it isn’t enough) that the cancellation was due to (I quote) "extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken." See here: https://retardimportantavion.wordpress.com/2021/03/01/force-majeure-circonstances-exceptionnelles-circonstances-extraordinaires-quest-ce-que-cest-definition-refus-dindemnisation/

The "European Small Claims Procedure" applies since your opponent’s headquarters is in Poland and you reside in a different EU member state. This procedure is handled in writing.

The challenge is that, if I understand correctly, you live in France, but you can only take legal action in Polish courts (the court with jurisdiction over the airline’s headquarters), Austrian courts (the court with jurisdiction over the departure airport), or Latvian courts (the court with jurisdiction over the arrival airport). So the process would be in Polish, German, or Latvian.

For next time, instead of rushing to call the airline, I’d recommend following the steps outlined here: https://retardimportantavion.wordpress.com/2023/09/29/indemnisation-meme-si-circonstance-extraordinaire-droit-reacheminement-dans-les-meilleurs-delais/

Not only could this potentially secure you a rebooking "as soon as possible," but if the airline fails to offer you a rebooking "as soon as possible" and you have PROOF that seats were available on another flight—even operated by a different airline—that met this requirement, the airline can no longer hide behind "extraordinary circumstances," even if proven, to deny compensation.

Best regards,
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hello,

For next time, rather than rushing to the phone to contact the airline

I didn’t rush into anything at all, and I never call anyone.

I simply filled out the airline’s complaint form, recapped the facts, provided the details, cited the law that you hold dear, and attached a bank account number. In French; though writing in German, Polish, or Latvian wouldn’t have been an issue.

Problems of this scale aren’t something I take to court. Last week, I flew SAS Scandinavian for the first time in five years because I’d banned them after they wrongfully refused to "pay" me my miles. With LOT Polish, anyway, just mentioning a problem here in public—giving it visibility—costs them commercially far more than 250 €. In a few weeks, I’ll come back here to share how they responded, and maybe the airline will rise to the occasion, in which case we’ll rightfully sing their praises. Plus, I rediscovered Air Baltic on this trip and their elite-level service at a reasonable price, so LOT Polish’s bizarre cancellation actually justified a competing offer.

Michel
AT Attila Globetrotter ·
The cancellation was made several months ago.

In any case, the flight hasn't taken place yet... So it's premature to contact the airline about costs that won't exist until the future.

Finally, schedule changes are common. Kate's flight could still be modified by the airline.
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
Having said that, writing in German, Polish, or Latvian wouldn't have been an issue.

Problems of this scale aren't something I handle in court.

Hi, When the airline won’t budge even though you’re in the right, it’s the only solution—unless you’d rather just let it go. Best regards
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
the flight hasn't taken place yet... So it's premature to contact the airline about fees that won't exist until the future.

Hello,

The airline must cover these costs directly under Article 9 of EU Regulation 261/2004, which means you need to claim beforehand. However, due to CJEU case law, I think it's more effective to claim reimbursement after the flight, with the proper documentation.

Finally, schedule changes are common. Kate's flight could still be modified by the airline.

We completely agree.

Best regards
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
When the airline won’t hear anything, even though you’re in the right, it’s the only solution—unless you’d rather just give up.

I’m not giving up; I’m settling the dispute another way.

Michel
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
When the airline refuses to listen, even though you're within your rights, it's the only solution—unless you prefer to give up.

I don’t give up; I settle the dispute another way.

Michel

Hi there,

Now you’ve really got my attention! What way is that?

Except for the "European Small Claims Procedure," French law requires attempting to resolve the issue amicably—and providing proof of it—before taking the matter to court.

The Aulnay-sous-Bois court, which handles cases for Charles de Gaulle Airport, is nearly paralyzed by the volume of air travel disputes. That said, the addition of 10 new judges to this court since the beginning of the year should improve things.

Since the hearings are public, anyone can see for themselves by attending the small claims court in Aulnay-sous-Bois during air travel dispute sessions that almost all cases are dismissed: airlines wait until the last possible moment before a ruling to give in. In fact, even without going in person, a quick search online will show that the judges involved have spoken out about this situation.

And some airlines (like Lufthansa) will go all the way to a ruling—even when they know they’ll lose!

While a simple complaint is still enough in some cases, most of the time, airlines only back down once legal action is taken—but before it reaches a judgment, allowing them to include a confidentiality clause in the settlement agreement.

Best regards,
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Wow, you’ve really got my attention now! How so?

I explain and illustrate this in a previous post: laying things out, for example, to redirect my commercial choices.

Honestly, I don’t feel like starting time-consuming and stressful procedures all over the place. And to be completely honest, I’m not entirely convinced these legal measures are legitimate.

It’s totally normal for the airline to provide meals, accommodation, compensate for the taxi, and of course refund the canceled flight. But asking for an amount higher than the ticket price for just a few hours’ delay? I’m not sure that’s very fair.

In the end, every traveler pays the price for these measures and compensations—they’re passed on to ticket prices and contribute to their inflation. Meh, I’m not into this game.

Michel
PA Pasfour ·
Thanks for this very detailed analysis you’ve done. In my case, the issue is figuring out who’s responsible for canceling our tickets—Turkish Airlines or Airlink. And I just can’t prove it. I still lean toward Turkish being at fault since they didn’t notify anyone about the ticket number change—not us, not Option Way, not Airlink, and not even their own check-in agents in Johannesburg. For a year now, I’ve been fighting with all the parties involved. I only have the name of Airlink’s customer service rep; Turkish is just an anonymous platform. The lawyer from Air Indemnité is waiting for the court hearing. Would you mind if I shared your analysis with her? Based on the messages she’s sent me, she doesn’t fully grasp the situation. My goal is to recover the cost of the reissued tickets (at full price!) Thanks again for taking an interest in my post.
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
Thank you for this very precise analysis you’ve done. In my case, the problem would be determining who is responsible for the cancellation of our tickets—Turkish Airlines or Airlink. And that’s something I can’t prove. I still lean toward Turkish Airlines being at fault since they didn’t notify anyone about the ticket number change—not us, not Option Way, not Airlink, nor even their own check-in agents in Johannesburg.

Hi,

You’re getting bogged down in issues that have no bearing on the dispute!

You don’t need to figure out "who’s at fault" because compensation is due regardless of responsibility. Cancellation or a delay of "3 hours or more" upon arrival at the final destination means compensation is due unless the airline can PROVE the issue was caused by (and I quote) "extraordinary circumstances that could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken" and, in the case of cancellation, if the passenger was informed less than 14 days in advance. There’s no question of responsibility here!

I don’t see any procedural difficulties for the outbound flight since the case is straightforward.

You’re expecting a lot from a claims agency given the amount they can hope to earn!

On the other hand, I highly doubt the return flight case will interest the agency since Regulation (EC) 261/2004 doesn’t apply to that flight. What does apply is Turkish law, which is nearly identical to Regulation 261/2004.

Best regards,
EL ElviajeroPar Globetrotter ·
Honestly, I don’t feel like jumping through hoops with time-consuming and stressful procedures; and to be frank, I’m not entirely convinced these legal provisions are even legitimate.

A regulation from the European Union, adopted by both the Council (all heads of state or government) and the European Parliament, *is* legitimate. Personally, I believe no one—including airlines—should consider themselves above the law and free to ignore these rules.

Those "time-consuming and stressful procedures" boil down to drafting a single, proper letter that works for both the registered mail and filing with the "justice conciliator" or even the court. If you use the "European Small Claims Procedure," you can skip the conciliator phase entirely, and the whole process is handled in writing. So, it’s just two mailings and then waiting. You can find template letters on my site: https://retardimportantavion.wordpress.com

Sure, the airline should provide meals, accommodation, reimburse the taxi, and refund the canceled flight—totally normal. But demanding a sum greater than the ticket price for just a few hours’ delay? Not sure that’s entirely fair.

Don’t confuse reimbursement for a service paid for but not delivered with compensation for damages suffered. Damages have nothing to do with the price you paid. No one would argue that compensation for serious medical malpractice should be limited to the cost of the consultation with the negligent doctor! The same goes for air travel.

And when you say "a few hours," let me tell you—I’ve experienced two delays of over 48 hours. The worst was... 5 days (!!!) due to sheer negligence by the airline!

The damages can take many forms: - Lost wages for not returning to work as planned, not to mention the risk of upsetting your employer; - At your final destination (as stated on your ticket), no more public transport available; - Lost train ticket for the rest of your trip, plus the need for a hotel room and meals—none of which the airline will cover once you’ve left the airport; - For those with multiple connecting flights on separate tickets, losing the subsequent flights; - Cruise ships that have already departed, meaning the cruise is lost along with all related expenses; - Your planned itinerary is ruined, of course; - For business travel, lost revenue or missing an important meeting;

And the list goes on...

The European legislator set standardized, flat-rate compensations to avoid endless haggling.

In the end, every traveler pays the price for these rules and compensations—they’re passed on to ticket prices and contribute to inflation. Meh, not into this game.

Let me quote points 82 and 83 from the *Nelson* ruling by the Court of Justice of the European Union:

"82 It should be added that, as noted by the Advocate General in point 60 of his Opinion, according to the data submitted to the Court on the frequency of significant delays and the costs of said compensation for airlines, the proportion of flights whose delay entitles passengers to compensation under Regulation No 261/2004 is less than 0.15%. 83 Finally, no concrete evidence has been presented to the Court to suggest that paying compensation for significant delays would lead to an increase in fares or a reduction in the number of regional flights and service to remote destinations."

Best regards,
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Good evening,

I don’t know why, but it seems we’re going to have a hard time understanding each other.

A regulation of the European Union, adopted both by the Council (the collective heads of state or government) and by the European Parliament, can only be legitimate.

Any law can be illegitimate—it’s a moral or ethical question. After that, you decide whether to use it or not, to enforce it or not. That’s a personal choice, and you’ll allow me the freedom to make my own.

Michel
PA Patrick91230 Globetrotter ·
Hello,

Totally agree—if it's a single booking (PNR), the airline is responsible for the ticket from the first to the last flight, no matter if you went through a reseller or not, or even if there are two different airlines on the ticket. That’s not the passenger’s problem. Since the ticket was issued by Turkish, they have to refund all the costs incurred due to their delay on the second outbound flight. They must reimburse the 600 € penalty + the amount spent to get back on the first return flight. There’s nothing to debate here—Turkish will have to pay, plus any potential legal fees incurred, and moral damages if claimed.
PA Pasfour ·
Thanks for your reply—it reinforces my request to Turkish Airlines. My lawyer has all my supporting documents to defend my rights.
PA Patrick91230 Globetrotter ·
so, time to get the lawyer on it! 😉
TA Tatra Globetrotter ·
Hello,

Of course, Turkish Airlines owes you compensation, and possibly reimbursement for the flight you paid for yourself. Did you keep your boarding passes? It’s extremely important to have them in this case.

Michel

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